noise audibility

[Gawain]

tell me one good reason why we should dumb down camo...

[neth]

camo = stealthy, harmless gadget. It cant affect the merc directly like ss or cam. Thats a reason why ss can be audible and camo shouldnt be

[Gawain]

camo = stealthy, harmless gadget. It cant affect the merc directly like ss or cam. Thats a reason why ss can be audible and camo shouldnt be

if the devs do their job, camo won't be harmless.
going for necks with camo is directly affects the mercs.
using hbs doesn't affect anyone.

[neth]

Nope. Camo is harmless, breaking necks is harmful. Camo does not give you harmful effect.

[Cyntrox]

Indeed, Neth, it makes it easier just like HBS makes it easier to know where a merc is, which in turn makes it easier to attack him/take an objective. If you're saying that camo kills, then you're saying that HBS does objectives.

[Farley4Fan]

Agree with Neth and Cyntrox on this one.  Camo shouldn't make sound, maybe at REALLY close range like 5 feet or so.  Who's going to take the time to switch on camo that close though when you can go for the neck if you are already unseen anyways?

Hopefully you guys fix camo, it's a useless item on console because 360 users see a bright green outline around the person using camo.  OF COURSE IT NEVER GOT FIXED!!  Ubi can go to hell.  Basically, everyone on console was forced to stop using it unless you knew that the mercs were only playing on regular xbox.

[Gawain]

tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.

[InvisibleMan999]

tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.

I hate the idea of a stealth gadget giving away your position. That's stupid.

Give me one good reason why you should be able to hear camo activation at all. I mean, are you saying you are unable to see a camoed spy within 3 meters?

[Spekkio]

tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.

I hate the idea of a stealth gadget giving away your position. That's stupid.

Give me one good reason why you should be able to hear camo activation at all. I mean, are you saying you are unable to see a camoed spy within 3 meters?

How about this:

Anything that gives you an advantage has to come with a disadvantage. Camo makes you much less detectable visually, so it needs to have some sort of a downfall, particularly if the devs are going to do something like make it not set off MT while going quickly. That downfall is that if you activate it too carelessly, you will be heard.

Again, no one is saying that you should hear camo across the map like you do now. We're saying that you should hear it if you're close to the spy. "Stealth equipment" does not mean you can mindlessly activate it anywhere without worrying that the merc might hear or see you.

[InvisibleMan999]

Anything that gives you an advantage has to come with a disadvantage. Camo makes you much less detectable visually, so it needs to have some sort of a downfall, particularly if the devs are going to do something like make it not set off MT while going quickly. That downfall is that if you activate it too carelessly, you will be heard.

Camo already has a few drawbacks. It drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly) and it also makes you visible on EMF. The energy drain alone basically prevents you from carelessly using it everywhere. If you don't use it with the right timing, you end up draining your energy reserves and having camo possibly fail on you at the wrong time. Further, camo prevents you from running, also another drawback.

I don't really see the need to give it more drawbacks than that.

Why is it that you guys expect camo to suddenly dominate the game or something because you can't hear it with EAX across the level? I've been playing without EAX since CT came out and I have never had a problem with camo. I don't hear camo when people use it. At all. In fact, I still consider camo an underpowered gadget.

Whatever you expect is going to happen with silent camo isn't going to. I've played for all this time and have not once seen a single instance where silent camo was anywhere close to being overpowered. The fact is that you can see a camoed spy at close range anyway. Hearing it isn't even remotely needed for balance. It's a nerf to an already underpowered gadget.

[Farley4Fan]

Agreed invisible.  It already has drawbacks.  It doesn't make you invisible.  In fact, it lights you up like a christmas tree with EMF whoring mercs.  You can't use it anywhere, you can't use it while moving fast, you can't use it while falling/rolling or while in the rain.  It doesn't need anymore downsides.

[Spekkio]

It drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly)

If it is 100% silent, it might as well not drain energy because you won't activate it until a merc is close enough that he might see you anyway.

it also makes you visible on EMF

And theoretically, if the devs are using the suggestions, makes you completely invisible on MT and almost invisible on normal vision.

And whoever said EMF-whoring: how do you know that we're going to be able to see emf ghosts in PS? Also, if you see a merc in EMF, just don't turn on camo. Problem solved.

Why is it that you guys expect camo to suddenly dominate the game or something because you can't hear it with EAX across the level? I've been playing without EAX since CT came out and I have never had a problem with camo.

You must not be playing people good with camo then. I've actually played some guys, like seefoo, who use camo effectively despite the fact that I have eax. It can be done.

[InvisibleMan999]

It drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly)

If it is 100% silent, it might as well not drain energy because you won't activate it until a merc is close enough that he might see you anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, if you can time it such that the moment the merc rounds the corner you activate camo, great. That's a tough skill to master though. It doesn't do you any good to activate camo after you've been spotted already, so if you want to have this split second timing, you better be damn good at it. Otherwise the merc sees you suddenly turn invisible and flicks on EMF or the laser. And you're just screwed.

And theoretically, if the devs are using the suggestions, makes you completely invisible on MT and almost invisible on normal vision.

Well I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.

And even if camo helps against MT, hearing it at close range won't do much good. Most of the time, if you get that close, the merc can either see you anyway, or isn't looking in your direction. So, the merc is either going to check your hiding spot and see you regardless of camo (since camo is easy to spot at point blank range), or he's going to blindly run past, while you then neck him or sneak past after he passes.  If the spy is that close to you, and you're looking at him, you can see him with normal vision, even if he does have camo on. Using camo in this equation changes nothing, and I'm not even sure why you're up in arms about it, thinking it'll be incredibly broken. It's just a matter of the merc either looking toward you or not looking toward you.

Camo in this equation isn't helping you to activate at close range. In fact, under your system, it's actually hurting you, since you're creating the presence detector blip that says you're within 3 meters of the merc. 

Also, if you see a merc in EMF, just don't turn on camo. Problem solved.

You make a lot of assumptions about a spy's recon abilities. How is it that the spy magically knows what vision you're in and can activate or not activate camo instantly before the merc happens to see him?

You must not be playing people good with camo then. I've actually played some guys, like seefoo, who use camo effectively despite the fact that I have eax. It can be done.

Maybe, but one rare case of awesome skill doesn't mean the gadget is balanced. Just because you get killed by a really good player using the pistol in Doom doesn't mean that the pistol is anywhere near competitive with the other weapons in the game. 

So few people use camo effectively, that it pretty much says that it probably needs a boost.

Lets actually wait until camo dominates the game before nerfing it.

[Spekkio]

You make a lot of assumptions about a spy's recon abilities. How is it that the spy magically knows what vision you're in and can activate or not activate camo instantly before the merc happens to see him?

99.9% of the time, I know where the mercs are. Additionally, a third person camera allows you to look around corners and see which vision the merc is using. If it's blue, you leave camo off. If it's yellow, you turn camo on. This is mindless, and gives you pretty much an auto-counter to whatever the merc is using.

And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.

At least if it made noise within a short radius, you would have to consider the risk of actually being detected.

Well I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.

I do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP  unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.

And even if camo helps against MT, hearing it at close range won't do much good. Most of the time, if you get that close, the merc can either see you anyway, or isn't looking in your direction.

You should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.

Camo in this equation isn't helping you to activate at close range. In fact, under your system, it's actually hurting you, since you're creating the presence detector blip that says you're within 3 meters of the merc. 

Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.

Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.

Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.

Maybe, but one rare case of awesome skill doesn't mean the gadget is balanced. Just because you get killed by a really good player using the pistol in Doom doesn't mean that the pistol is anywhere near competitive with the other weapons in the game.

I never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.

[Gawain]

i'm of the same opinion like spekkio here.
btw i mentioned emf whoring because with no more emf ghosting people are less likely to run around in emf vision resulting in a little boost for camo.