****New Spy Gadget Idea ****

[Spekkio]

I honestly dont find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? Thats like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.

Im going to have to kindly disagree on this one. Whilst the game does it OK, I still think this could be beneficial to the merc. For example, the cameras will not be able to detect spies outside of a certain radius, however its possible that the spies can still be seen through the camera, just too far away to be detected. As a mercenary, the game doesnt tell you which camera has been triggered either, not through some sort of HUD alert. It only does this on the spy side iirc.

I don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.

[ChickenSkin]

I honestly dont find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? Thats like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.

Im going to have to kindly disagree on this one. Whilst the game does it OK, I still think this could be beneficial to the merc. For example, the cameras will not be able to detect spies outside of a certain radius, however its possible that the spies can still be seen through the camera, just too far away to be detected. As a mercenary, the game doesnt tell you which camera has been triggered either, not through some sort of HUD alert. It only does this on the spy side iirc.

I don\\\\\\\'t think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that\\\\\\\'s the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.

I agree, it basically gives away the spies position. Thats how I think the EMP gadget could be useful in this sort of scenario, so instead of shooting it out you can just freeze the camera (when its frozen it will play maybe the last 10 seconds of the camera reel before being frozen) to fool the merc, and allowing spies to sneak past without having to shoot the camera. You can only freeze the camera for as long as the EMP gadget lasts, and the gun has to be pointed at the camera at all times for it to stay frozen. A solo spy will be able to accomplish this on his own. Im just throwing ideas out here, tossing them up, not really thinking much about them, so there could be thousands of flaws in my suggestions. Im not saying any of them are perfect and am welcome to any other suggestions.

[Spekkio]

You then you need the EMP to counter camnet? Stupid.

[Kurbutti]

First of all, the security isn't useless. If you come by while "bunnies" are in the corridors, those bunnies are probably going to trip a camera and lockdown the objectives for 20 seconds. Problem is that most maps don't have enough cameras and/or lasers for these bunnies to trip, so they can just run around in circles tap-hacking things until they get something.

I was referring to security in a more collective way. I agree that security can situationally be beneficial, but anything next to the objective not causing an lockdown is simply inane. All in all, I'm all for having more security within the map.

Secondly, the security in a map isn't meant to be this dungeon of doom that is impossible to get passed while no one is watching. It's meant to support the merc's patrolling.

I agree, but my goal was rather to point out the differing concepts encapsuled witin different forms of passive security. Lasers and motion sensors stationed at the outer premiter and objectives, while the interior would be more camera orientated, allowing room for faster and slower playstyles. Maybe with a few fluctuating laser spots, too.

Thirdly, using spy traps and/or mines boost the power of the security already there, without the downside of having to stop and become completely unaware of your surroundings.

I know that's a foreign concept to a lot of people because almost no one takes spy traps, but there is a way to guard maps without camnet or double backpack.

I'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.

When presented between looking through a camera that is already there and will lock objectives if tripped, or being able to place more stuff to track and kill the spy, I can't see why anyone would choose the former.

As for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.

[Spekkio]

I'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.

The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.

Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.

As for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.

I disagree, and I would be interested to test out even motion sensors locking objectives, so long as you can get past them undetected by going slowly. If PS is going to move away from the shock-run-tap and hack gameplay that is so prevalant in CT, then security needs to lock stuff. For example, how many people would still employ the run around tactic if the cameras in the main corridors locked the garden laptop (or possibly even the entire floor)?

In talking to whatever-his-name is over xfire, I realized that there is one key use to a camnet that feeds into the security cameras: anytime you get a security failure, you can flip through it to find out exactly which camera the spy shot out. I don't think that's something the mercs should be able to do.

[Gawain]

I don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.

why not? you could do fake-failures, something with snares (dunno yet) etc. i also think every tripped passive security should lock objectives for quite a while, so there's a huge difference. it's also that if the pass. sec. cams are the replacement for camnet, the merc is blind in that area if the cam get's tazed, so he should at least get some information.

The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.
Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.

this system is way too complex. besides, running around like a maniac to harvest traps shouldn't be a good idea in the first place. if there was more passive security (especially with lock-down doors), no longer taze-timer for the host and either boosted mines/nerfed chaff, running around like that would be way more risky to begin with. i don't think mutually removing them should be nerfed; instead, i'd make them harder to see with thermal vision. if they are only clearly visible in 3-5m distance, people would be more likely to run into them without even noticing, and harvesting would be harder because you don't even know where the others are. flipping on thermal vision for 1 second/room and see basically everything is clearly op.

[frvge]

What about Trackers which tag the Spy, and when the Spy runs through a second one, he's instantly killed (or loses a lot of health)? Bit like the two pills for euthanizing.

[Kurbutti]

I'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.

The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.

There are at least three ways to fix this:

1) Your suggestion

2) When a trap has been tripped, all other spy traps become indestructible for the tagged spy for the duration of the tag. No removal can be done, as there can be only one tag at a time/spy.

The benefits of this solution over yours would be the elimated profit from running around and getting rid of the other traps, because they can't be tripped/removed. Granted, stacking puts spies in a considerable disadvantage but you would still risk losing all the traps in the process. Furthermore, keep in mind that after tripping one trap the spy is most likely inside the premiter; this usually means that the other traps can be disabled with SS and they may not block paths once within the corridors.

3) Sort of a combination of the two.

-Numerous traps can be tripped on a single spy.

-Once a spy has been tagged by one, others become indestructible.

-The time will stack exactly like you said in your example, but removal can be done only once, and not at all, if there is only one trap activated. So if a spy tags two, his mate can remove 1/2 of the duration. If the spy trips three, he could shorten the duration by 1/3. The stacking would be tied with the global timer as you presented so dying would not affect it. This doesn't mean that removal would reset as the spy dies, however.

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As for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.

I disagree, and I would be interested to test out even motion sensors locking objectives, so long as you can get past them undetected by going slowly. If PS is going to move away from the shock-run-tap and hack gameplay that is so prevalant in CT, then security needs to lock stuff. For example, how many people would still employ the run around tactic if the cameras in the main corridors locked the garden laptop (or possibly even the entire floor)?

I don't like the idea of having every security device lock down every objective. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, although any security device within 10 second's mercrun away from the nearest objective should lock it, so spies can't ignore them and run for a hack, and even be able to finish it before the merc gets there.

Motion sensors 5 meters away from objectives that beep 2 seconds before objective is being hacked are useless. To straighten things out, ANYTHING that's supposed to guard objectives ought to have zero tolerance towards the spy. There would be few things as stupid has having a motion sensor somewhere that you can bybass by crawling, or a camera that doesn't detect you instantly. Also, security devices that are not directly aligned to objectives should isolate the area at most, not make a spy unable to hack on the other side of the map.

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I don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.

why not? you could do fake-failures, something with snares (dunno yet) etc. i also think every tripped passive security should lock objectives for quite a while, so there's a huge difference. it's also that if the pass. sec. cams are the replacement for camnet, the merc is blind in that area if the cam get's tazed, so he should at least get some information.

Why wouldn't anyone want to do such thing, if there's a way to get past it in the first place? Also, allowing mercs to see which camera is down gives them a good idea where the spy is and what's his most likely course. I see no use for this feature spy-side.

Another problem is that spy would have to move withing an eyesight from the camera, and that deviates him from his objective and risks his life as he most likely has to place himself around merc-accessible areas. Besides, snaring the cameras would be a waste unless you could activate it later.

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The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.

Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.

this system is way too complex. besides, running around like a maniac to harvest traps shouldn't be a good idea in the first place. if there was more passive security (especially with lock-down doors), no longer taze-timer for the host and either boosted mines/nerfed chaff, running around like that would be way more risky to begin with. i don't think mutually removing them should be nerfed; instead, i'd make them harder to see with thermal vision. if they are only clearly visible in 3-5m distance, people would be more likely to run into them without even noticing, and harvesting would be harder because you don't even know where the others are. flipping on thermal vision for 1 second/room and see basically everything is clearly op.

First of all, it's not very complex, and even if it was, it will prove the necessity of a good tutorial for this game.

Second of all, you can't tell how people should, or will play the game.

Thirdly, the main issue with traps is that they can be removed in a ridiculously easy way.

Finally, I don't think thermal needs other nerfs than decreasing it's resolution and adding some blur into rapid movement.

[Gawain]

i'd only change two things:
-once you're trapped, running through other spy traps won't set them off
-thermal vision only showing lasers from up close (something like the more far away you are the smaller the color difference gets)

i'm strictly against adding additional timers, delays, motion blour or other bullshit.

regarding motion sensors, i think we need 2 different models that can easily be seperated by look:
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk

[Kurbutti]

i'd only change two things:
-once you're trapped, running through other spy traps won't set them off

As such this isnät good enough. Being able to remove them is the core of the problem.

-thermal vision only showing lasers from up close (something like the more far away you are the smaller the color difference gets

Poor visual quality and motion blur would effectively mask any lasers in the distance. The last thing I'll want to see is lasers appearing right in fron of me.

i'm strictly against adding additional timers, delays, motion blour or other bullshit.

This is the core mechanic present with my and Spekkio's fixes. I don't see anything wrong with it, either.

regarding motion sensors, i think we need 2 different models that can easily be seperated by look:
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk

There would be no need for different models. You could simply change the flash colour. Green/Red for one, Blue/Red for another. I'm not sure if this necessary since I think it should be established, that the security near objective has zero tolerance.

[Gawain]

the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.

[Kurbutti]

the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.

I strongly disagree.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk

0.3 meter is too little.
It could only be used for vents then ::)

[Gawain]

don't be silly and read my post again before you delete yours (little hint: there's a difference between range and tolerance)

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Ok assume i still don't get it.

model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk

m is meters

Please explain what 0.3 stands for then :)