Challenge based Rankings

[Spark Mandriller]

Rocket's idea was to put stuff like I assume TF2 has. Where you get extra little things randomly when you play (But perhaps at certain intervals of time). Again, the Idle servers come up... So either it would have to be like TF2's Hats, or the things you got would have to be minimally different.

Hey hey hey, all the cool games these days make you unlock stuff. Making it take 800 hours before letting people have a full set of items for spy and merc is just taking shit to the next level.


ps this is so hard on one hand i want to tell you to stop calling me rocket but on the other i want to be elitist and refuse to tell anyone my name because y'know anyone who's anyone should know it already

so hard to choose :(

[Cronky]

Hey hey hey, all the cool games these days make you unlock stuff. Making it take 800 hours before letting people have a full set of items for spy and merc is just taking shit to the next level.


ps this is so hard on one hand i want to tell you to stop calling me rocket but on the other i want to be elitist and refuse to tell anyone my name because y'know anyone who's anyone should know it already

so hard to choose :(

I'm not sure if I should be insulted... Or just not care!

So hard to choose :D

So since all I see is Rocket, and that other word you got before it just takes FAR TOO long for me to type.... I'll stick with it. The name is just SO Catchy!

As for the other part of your post. I'm also left wondering to what context you meant for it to be read in. Sarcasm? Disturbed? I can't quite tell with only ONE smiley in the wrong place.

Using TF2 as a widespread example of your idea was because.. It works, and most people have experience with it. I could use one of many other games, but this one explains my points the best while not losing people with Obscure-er titles.

In TF2, you by far don't have a lack of weapons even before it gives you new ones. Everyone still does their job just as well. ON the flip side of that coin though, it unlocks a different set of items for you in time to use that doesn't effect the class TOO much. Same as I saw with your idea.

Spies would have all their normal stush when you first start playing. Only "100 Hours" (Or as I see it... A placeholder for the words, "At one point...") later you could gain access to things such as... That DA style Wrist Hacker Deal (Updated Of Course), or Mercs could gain Phosphorus. It could give you a new way to play, but isn't a BASIC Requirement when starting.

Whether or not it would work like that or if you meant it like that is aside from the point. You made a valid idea that would make a fun experience and give incentive to use only one account without doing something DRASTIC that would take much more work.

[Spark Mandriller]

I do not think unlockable equipment should be in the game because it is stupid and unfair. Stupid because people should not have to grind to be able to use the items they want, and unfair, because even if the unlocks are perfectly balanced with the items they replace, a choice is still better than no choice.

I do not think we will be able to create a system that will ensure people can get into games with others of their skill level. I am positive none of the ideas proposed in this thread will work.

I also do not think stat tracking should be included as it leads to people playing the game for their stats, rather than for the game itself.

My name is Noop-Ni, but calling me Noop would also be acceptable.


This post is too serious so here is a picture of two anime girls.

[Spekkio]

Stupid because people should not have to grind to be able to use the items they want,

I wish game developers would realize this with their single player modes as well. Like hey, I don't want to have to beat SF4 with every goddamn character to be able to play as Seth...that just makes me put the game on very easy and wastes 2 hours of my time.

[VaNilla]

What I took from your post, while keeping away from the touchy server problem is that the Challenges should just be along the same lines as Halo's Medals. I've thought up quite a bit of them (As anyone who thinks about it for a second could). While it wouldn't GIVE you anything except another stat to track; it would be a motivation for some to pick up different styles of gameplay.

That is essentialy the point I'm making. As for your point about casual/pro modes, I think there should just be one lobby for people to play in (in terms of rank anyway, but even then, there could be a server filter for country instead of different lobbies). This way, everybody can still have fun, but they can also gain rewards at the same time. This should NOT effect gameplay, as Noop mentioned, that's just boring, unbalanced and plain stupid. It works in games such as MW2 because you are rewarded with slight improvements to your guns, which doesn't really affect gameplay or balance. When we're talking about gadgets, different gadgets can create completely different gameplay situations, so having to unlock gadgets just could not work, it would alienate players from the full experience.

The type of rewards I am suggesting are more akin to earning a gold star in a school, they only serve as incentives and motivation :). As for idling servers, there's never going to be a foolproof way of deterring that, but to those who play legitimately, rewards offer further incentive to play the game, and in my opinion make the game more fun.

P.S: I have a new found hate for iPod Touch typing.

[Cronky]

@Noop and Spekkio (To a much lesser extent STON3 also)

WEAPON REWARDS
------------------------------------

Unlocking different options for Weapons/Gadgets (Such as: Wrist Hacker vs Sticky Shocker Gun) is different then a character or Primary Weapon/Gadgets (Sticky Shocker Gun).

It's about pacing a Player's experience.

------------------------------------
Pacing Example
------------------------------------

Say you're playing Doom. You are given a pistol at the start and from there you gain weapon after weapon until at the end you are wielding a BFG with enough ammo to vaporize anything you happen to see (Or Will see).

You could cheat and get all the weapons at the start, but if you were purposefully given the weapons at the start then the Player wouldn't feel any progression; wouldn't understand the basics. Instead, having a false impression that the BFG is the only weapon you'd ever need. So why use others?

While this makes sense in a Single Player Shooter the same pacing can be compared, yet not connected to other Genres or Game Types.

------------------------------------
Actual Rewards Explanation via TF2
------------------------------------

On to TF2 again... Why their Rewards system works is that everyone starts at square One. Balanced weapon rewards are their pacing.

You start out with a Sniper Rifle with The Sniper. No need to fiddle with Menus or wonder how the mechanics of it all are going to work... You aim, you fire. Simple steps because beginners aren't going to instantly know everything right off the bat. No matter how much experience they have at similar games.

Later you can acquire the Huntsman, a Bow that plays differently than the Sniper Rifle, but ultimately keeps you doing the same thing. The amount of time between acquiring said weapon, and you starting is their "Pacing". Once you get it, you will know the menus, you will understand the objectives, you will know the classes, and finally... You know the pros and cons of what you first had.

The same can be done with Project Stealth, and how I saw your idea as a good one.

Not everyone is going to have played CT before this game, so not everyone is going to understand the dramatic difference between a "Sticky Shocker Gun" and a "Wrist Hacker" (If both were implemented). The choice of both from the start can lead to confusion, and an even steeper learning curve.

Thus Pacing could be implemented through the idea of your (Noop's) Reward system. By the time they get the Wrist Hacker, they will know all their strategies with the SS Gun. It's not as if SS gun makes you Unable to do Stealth or Aggro, or that the Wrist Hacker is better than the SS Gun. Just that you will understand the basics of the gameplay BEFORE given a choice you don't understand.

------------------------------------
Street Fighter 4
------------------------------------

Fighting games are kind of the exception to this progression rule.

While one could say that playing through the story mode with X amount of Characters for X amount of  hours is your "Basic" training before you get new characters. It's not really the same. Since each character is unique, though some combos harder to master.

The use of this gameplay theory is just a ploy to make you play their whole game... Since if you could play as anyone from the Get Go... Who would play as any of their other characters? Hell, who would play the Single Player at all?

------------------------------------
Ending Side Note
------------------------------------

Everything I use as an Example is just that... an Example... when I'm thinking of it. Not set in stone. I don't mean to say, "The ONLY way this could work is if you made the Spy get a Wrist Hacker", but it's a fine item that is different, but doesn't really affect gameplay in a HUGE way. Again, it doesn't stop you from hacking objectives, breaking necks, or being Sneaky/Rambo... Instead is just another option with a balanced set of rules to vary your style of play (IF you decide to use it).


STAT TRACKING
------------------------------------

It's true some people will play for Stats alone. There is no way against that though. It's like how some people will only play Project Stealth for the Spy side of the game... caring not for Merc. Some even refusing to play the Merc side of gameplay. This idea is not meant for those people, but rather the ones who want some kind of longevity out of their experience.

I'm all for winning a game, or killing a Spy/Merc, but how long will that last? What's the point if I get NOTHING for it? Much like how CT has died out almost completely (Unless otherwise Set up to be played)... There's no reason to keep on playing. I've gotten my 3 years straight of playing Spy and Merc, it's just pure monotony now.

With Stat Tracking and the combined idea from STON3 and Noop people could play the game with the illusion of progress. By no means has it been mentioned that there should be a LEADERBOARD saying "X person is #1 at playing this game", but something you could judge yourself on is better than nothing.

Also, the people who are playing for Stats alone are still playing. Better to have a bigger community of players to pick from, rather then a smaller one. For fun and stability of the active people that is.

RANK AND AUTOMATCHING
------------------------------------

Rank/Automatch ideas are just there so that you could actually play the game against fair competition.

Hypothetical Situation: Me being new to the game (A while after Release) wont know all the hiding spots, what I'm doing, or what to look for. I don't want to have to endure 15 games against people that have been playing since Beta. Getting headshotted because I haven't full grasped the controls fluidly yet.

No matter how fun the game CAN be, if I have to storm the beaches of Normandy just to start playing... I'd probably find a new game to play instead.

Choice against your opponents works badly if you are the Better One weeding others out. On the flip side it is good because when you are the Lesser One trying to find others of the same Skill.. It makes sense.

IN CONCLUSION
------------------------------------

All of this combines into a Longer Lasting experience. Since after a year or two the game will be losing it's "New Game Smell", popular as it may be among the lack of competition... There has to be a reason to keep playing. Lest this turns into what CT is now. Admittedly there is no way to make this go on FOREVER... but depending on the options you can at least pass it off for a long time.

Look at Halo... Whether or not you like the Multiplayer there are a LOT of people still playing it. Doesn't seem like it will die off soon, partly because there is a lot of Player Feedback. Medals, Movies, Easy Level Creator, Pictures, Active Website, Achievements, Stats, the list goes on... This is all while the gameplay is fun itself too. While they are all, in reality, pointless; people's reactions aren't. The Community is alive, and caters to every type of person.

Limiting something just because, "It's Stupid", or because, "I don't like it" leaves it with a shallow experience.

[Spark Mandriller]

Locking features because you don't think people will be able to understand them at first is a terrible idea. It's the same "players are stupid" line of thinking that gave us no lobby system/only 1 item slot/THE RED TERMINAL IS UNDER ATTACK in DA. Fuckin' insulting.

And y'know the whole forced grind just to play how you want to thing and the balance problems still exist too, so...

[Cronky]

Locking features because you don't think people will be able to understand them at first is a terrible idea. It's the same "players are stupid" line of thinking that gave us no lobby system/only 1 item slot/THE RED TERMINAL IS UNDER ATTACK in DA. Fuckin' insulting.

And y'know the whole forced grind just to play how you want to thing and the balance problems still exist too, so...

Those features you just said are HUGELY game altering.

Yes, you CAN go overboard, but at no time did I say something along the lines of, "Hey... Play for 100 Hours and you can get a 2nd Gadget slot. It should be a PRIVILEGE to use more than 1". I believe it's the general consensus that the things DA did Badly wont be in PS. None of which have been mentioned here.

You keep mentioning Forced Grind too. As if something like Phosphorus Grenades or the Wrist Hacker are something you NEED to be able to play. All the gadgets that would be "Rewards" would be... Extra ones, or variations of ones you already have (In my vision of this idea. Also in my Vision they are gadgets you don't even KNOW about, but I can't continue on this without mentioning SOMETHING. Thus Wrist Hacker).

It really comes down to you not knowing how you'll play PS though... If it plays exactly like CT then you already know what you're going to do. Grab the same Gadgets you did then, and bust out the same tactics you did then. Holding back something doesn't Impede your play style since you've never played with these items, rather... At ANY time the Dev's could put something in that they made to vary gameplay up a little bit, and have it be something to look forward to.

Such as.. You have Sticky Cams.

TF2 Style you randomly get Network Cams. Now these Cams can be set up in a network that you AND your partner can look at, but they don't have the sleeping gas. Game Altering? Perhaps, but nothing MAJOR. You don't LOSE Sticky Cams, and you may not even use the Network ones.

Yes, it's possible to STILL go overboard. Balancing is always an Issue, whether or not everyone has access to a certain Gadget.

Such as... They could never make a Grenade that did something... Drastic (Cluster bomb explosion). Or make a new Gadget that the only way to beat it is to have said other gadget that needs to be unlocked, but slight Variations are fine.

Network Cams
Remote Controlled Mines (No sounds or Light, No EMF signatures (Or very little), but must be manually blown up)
Wrist Hacker
Timed Grenades (Ones you could set a certain length of time to. [1sec, 2sec, 3sec, etc])
Air Taser (Long Ranged, but easily avoided)

Things such as that could TECHNICALLY work if balanced a lot. Huge changes to gameplay? Not particularly, but enough to warrant it being a "difference". All the while it would give old players something new to play with when unlocked. Thus giving the game longevity, if only for the few games where you test the capabilities of said gadget.

Again, TF2 is a perfect example that I'm using to death. Knowing about the Huntsman and not having it didn't mean I felt lacking. Though when I got it, I got a new wave of curiosity on how it was used. Led me to game after game of testing it out, but in the end I went back to the Sniper Rifle.

Not that it was a bad weapon since I know/see people that can use it better than the Sniper Rifle. Just wasn't my cup of Tea. To which is the point I'm trying to Convey. Just because it's OUT there doesn't mean it's instantly useful. You don't base your tactics on things you don't have, so "How you play" wont be a huge problem.

[Spark Mandriller]

And so if I want to use any of these new items I have to grind for them. Great. Why is this preferable to just having them available from the start?


(I can't help but notice you keep ignoring the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things unfair for new players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.)

[Cronky]

And so if I want to use any of these new items I have to grind for them. Great. Why is this preferable to just having them available from the start?


(I can't help but notice you keep ignoring the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things unfair for new players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.)

Unfair to New Players
------------------------

I've typed it many times... None of the Gadgets are Hugely Game Altering. Plus no one is missing out on the Essentials. I'm not saying that what should be unlockable for Merc's is something like the Shotgun or SMG. That Spies should be able to get an Optic Camo that goes through Static Defenses, or Chaff should be held back for this idea. Nothing about people having to work to get more Gadget Slots.

None of the Rewards/Gadgets I've mentioned give you a distinct advantage over ANYTHING. Some give you a difference in certain situations (As does every gadget), but are far from unfair to someone that doesn't have it (As is every gadget). Saying it's unfair because they don't KNOW about it is different, but them being new means they don't know everything anyway.

Stat Tracking and Rank could also be used... Hrmm... I don't think a New Player playing a New Player is going to see something drastically different than what they are using.


Why it's preferable
------------------------

To keep the Game Fresh. To give the people playing a REASON to play more. Why does someone continue to play TF2? Why does someone Continue to play CoD:MW?

Couldn't be cause the game is fun regardless of extra stuff they have to wait for... No no no...

If you want the straight truth! It's because I don't want this game to get boring after 3 years (Which is giving a LOT of leeway time-wise) as CT obviously did. Instant gratification is expected, and is a mindset that most have. You see something; you want it. You want it; you get it.

God forbid they play the game to get the thing they want, you don't lose interest because it you don't get it right off the bat. It's much like Hype, the more you see of it... The more you'll like it when you get it.

Plus it's fair among ALL players. The glory if this TF2 example is... it's already been done, and outlook is good.

You're going to be FAR from Option-less when PS comes out. Gadgets Galore is what we can expect, and at the very least MOST of CT's will be there. Giving a reward for actually playing isn't bad. The reward being something you've never used isn't going to cramp your style you play with.

[Spark Mandriller]

So there's Item A and Item B, right? They're pretty balanced with each other, right? Now, Guy 1 can choose between taking Item A or Item B. Guy 2 is forced to choose Item A.

Who's better off here?

If the gadgets do different things, they're going to be preferable in different situations. If they're not available to everyone without grinding for them, someone somewhere is going to get screwed because they haven't unlocked the item that would help them, while someone else who has will do fine. That is bullshit.


Can't you just keep track of how long you've played and congratulate yourself every time you hit a milestone? That way you can still feel good, and nobody has to suffer because you have a progression fetish. Wouldn't that be the best way?

[Cronky]

You type as if you get to use ALL Gadgets ALL the time. Just because one person doesn't have an Item doesn't mean that they worse off than anyone else.

Person A has mines without the option of Remote Detonation.

Person B has mines with the option of Remote Detonation.

Do you really care about the subtly because of that slight Variation? Does Person A having the option mean they're going to use it? That having Manually Detonated Mines is anything different better than having the first 3 types.

That's even using a Reward that doesn't involve a new Gadget being made.

Person A has Normal Grenades and Phosphorus (To which Phosphorus is unlockable)

Person B has Normal Grenades and Mines

Does the fact that Person A has something Person B doesn't mean that Person B is any less Deadly? That Phosphorus is going to be your key to victory?

You only get to pick between a certain amount of Gadgets. Four if they are making PS like CT. You aren't at a fault because you didn't bring a certain thing into the game. Sure some are Preferable! Such as Mines, Grenades, Backpack, and a Gasmask, but then again... I don't mean to say that the Essentials were locked to begin with anyway, but with a lot of Balance Playtesting and a reward for actually playing.. It could actually be fun to get these new options.

Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.

Progression Fetish... You also assume I'd rather be kept away from the full potential of items that I could have.

I'm not thinking about myself in this, but the Game. Yes, having all the items would be GREAT, but what would make the game last longer? Progression.

What would I choose...

The game that plays just like CT and ends up just like CT. (How many people are online right now?)

Or

The game that plays like CT but gives a reason to continue playing other than self-aware Gratification. (Which may not work, but at least is an educated guess based on other games popularity)

[Spark Mandriller]

Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.

uh huh



i'm going to be going away now

[Cronky]

Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.

uh huh



i'm going to be going away now

That's an awful big Cop-Out of a response.

Have I walked away from this site because I don't get anything for posting other than Self Gratification? No.

Have I continued to post FULL knowing that all I may or may not get is a lackluster response? Yes.

Progression Fetish Theory Broken. When you return a real response would be greatly appreciated. :)

EDIT:

Or to use a similar line as you did...

I can't help but notice you ignored the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things fair for all players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.

EDIT2: Strike Through Of Childish Response.

[frvge]

Split the topic from the original one.