EMP Grenades

[B1nArY_001]

the chaff effect can be done "next-gen", too.

Yes it could be but the fact remains that chaff is... well... chaff. It is limited in its appearance in many more ways than other options. IMO anyhow.

[Overstatement]

IMO anyhow.

I disagree.

[B1nArY_001]

IMO anyhow.

I disagree.

lmao  ;D

Agree to disagree?  :-\

[InvisibleMan999]

This is a "I think the spies should be able to run around freely if they take chaff" argument in disguise, since that's the only time you'd be using the quick-throw to get around a mine on the other side of a wall. For proxies you can just crawl and save your chaffs for something else; for lasers you will have to shoot the chaff anyway since the mine isn't going to be right next to the doorway.

Well, I could see the argument if people just wanted to say that chaff doesn't work on proxies at all, but I figure if it can disable prox then throwing a grenade down at the entrance to a place should get the mine. You shouldn't be constantly guessing if your chaff is going to work or not, or it will make it a big pain. Chaff really has to spread around walls, otherwise you'll find it crazy difficult to chaff some mines that happen to be protected by cover.

A complex 3D spread algorithm is going to be tough to code. Given the small design team, it's probably easier just to say it goes through walls.

Coding concerns may not exactly sound like great arguments but for this project I think they're certainly valid. The game will be worthless if it's never finished.

[Gawain]

"takes progamming time" is a quite weak point...

[InvisibleMan999]

"takes progamming time" is a quite weak point...

Not when you've got a small design team it's not.

Seriously, every change we put into this game, the design team has to ask itself: is it worth the trouble to code/animate?

[frvge]

"takes progamming time" is a quite weak point...

Despite what some people think, we only have 2 amateur programmers without 3D engine experience, and some advisors who dont have the correct hardware to run UE3.

You'd have a point if we had 10 fulltime, experienced programmers. Now, every feature we put in, will take long and needs to be weighted carefully. Of course, we have the plus that there isn't a deadline ;) But to have you wait for 6 months just because we need to think of that chaff-around-wall-algorithm... meh.

[Overstatement]

some advisors who dont have the correct hardware to run UE3.

My new role is code quality control. I take all your messed up code and rewrite it to be more understandable/proper/less buggy. Perfect role for me since I have the most practical programming experince (?) and am critical of things to the point of perfectionism. Changing code introduces less bugs (which is a big problem for someone who can't debug) than if I created something.

[Farley4Fan]

We should give the merc a airsoft gun then. rifles and bullets are in 100x more games than EMP grenades. As a matter of fact, I don't know of a game with EMP grenades. Granted I don't play a huge variety of games but I've never seen one. It seems like a relatively un-used idea when compared to mines, remote charges, frags, rifles, shotguns, uzis etc etc.

I am pretty sure that Sam Fisher had EMP grenades in SP mode of DA.  When he threw one, there was a little electric sound after a little pop sound.

[Spekkio]

IIRC, Chaff in PT didn't affect proxies. I could be wrong though.

However, again there is little point in using a chaff at a doorway to disable a mine unless you are running very quickly.

[InvisibleMan999]

However, again there is little point in using a chaff at a doorway to disable a mine unless you are running very quickly.

Well of course, but if you're using a chaff instead of sneaking in more stealthfully, chances are it is a rush of some kind. Chaffs make quite a bit of noise. You really need to move quick after dropping a chaff, because the merc is coming. 

[Farley4Fan]

Not to mention they have white particles floating around.  I think that EMP grenades would be more useful depending on how it is made.

[HeroFromHyrule]

Yeah, if a new gadget doesn't have enough unique features to make it a significant addition to the game, then it's not worth the trouble of coding its graphics and animations.

As far as chaff going through walls, I can think of a few good reasons why they should:

Even if chaff doesn't go through walls, we need it to burst out around walls. nobody wants to detonate a chaff only to be destroyed by a mine that happened to be a little niche because the chaff didn't have a direct LoS to the mine. It's going to be difficult to code chaff properly to burst around walls in a fashion that works. Imagine one of those glitch mines that's inside a wall, and imagine if the chaff spread algorithm doesn't accurately penetrate wherever it happens to be hidden. You chaff, you run in thinking you're okay and the boom. A mine that happened to evade the chaff field blows you to pieces.

It's simply easier to code chaff as a wall piercing radius effect, because then you're certain that it disables all mines in its area.

Here is the flaw in your argument.  Making chaffs work through walls because of possible glitch mines is NOT a good design decision.  If there is a glitch mine, the glitch should be fixed.  End of story.  You shouldn't tweak the gadgets to allow people to continue to use the glitch because it is still possible to chaff it and take it out.  A glitch is still a glitch.

Now, as for programming time for something like this, yes, I can see that being an issue.  If it comes down to having to make them work through walls because of programming limitations and not wanting this to take years (I'd like to at least playing something related to this in 2008) then I can live with that.  Chaffs work through walls in CT, so it won't be a huge earth-shattering change if they have to do it in PS.

[Gawain]

However, again there is little point in using a chaff at a doorway to disable a mine unless you are running very quickly.

Well of course, but if you're using a chaff instead of sneaking in more stealthfully, chances are it is a rush of some kind. Chaffs make quite a bit of noise. You really need to move quick after dropping a chaff, because the merc is coming. 

dude, mines are primarily against rushers, not against stealth players.

[Daybreak]

I use mines as path blocking for stealth players. Slowing them down and requiring them to either remove the mine or shoot it, which in turns reveals that they were there.