EMP Grenades

[Daybreak]

Uh, having Chaff go through the wall didn't affect gameplay too greatly. Rather than, bouncing a nade off the wall they saved 2 seconds by quick droping. While 2 seconds can be long in a game like Versus. It's not gameplay altering.

[Spekkio]

1. Stop with this realistic bullshit. Realistically a spy can't take a bullets to the chest and leg and proceed to run away full speed, then magically heal his wounds by standing still. So until spies scream like a banshee and crawl into a ball when you shoot them in the thigh with a high-powered rifle, leave the realism arguments out of this.

2. Daybreak, I disagree. Chaff going through walls has a huge effect on gameplay from an aggro standpoint. You don't play aggro one bit, so you probably wouldn't see the difference. The club house garden hopping is one example where chaff through walls allows for something ridiculous. The extra 2 seconds it would take to actually fire the chaff would allow the merc to take the elevator to the previous floor. Alternatively, it'd allow the merc to actually go chase the spy out in garden cuz he can't quickly chaff his way into the map unless he wants to hit the spy trap or anything else you might have waiting for him.

Another example is the ridiculous Museum run around. People often try to place proxies around the cafe to prevent this, but with chaff it doesn't matter. Just throw them at the corners and keep running.

Another example is Aquarius in greek room. Many people place a proxy on the pillar that is on the objective side of the entry door coming from spy spawn. A quick-throw chaff will not only disable the lasers for that doorway, but also magically goes through the pillar and disables that proxy mine completely. The extra 3-5 seconds that would ordinarilly be spent crawling to remove the mine are another 3-5 seconds you have to cover the objective.

And the biggest ridiculous example is Hospital. That map is just ridiculous. I can't remember the last time I lost a spy round on that one with Mr.Mic. The last time we played it, both spy teams won in under 4 minutes. This is largely because one quick-throw chaff disables any mines that you can place near the doorways. Another one a few steps later takes out the rest of the room. You don't have to spend the extra 5 seconds to remove the mines -- an important 5 seconds the mercs need to react (the motion sensors should be put back, too, but that's besides the point).

I don't know how anyone could argue that this "doesn't have a huge effect on gameplay." It's a small change, much in the way that removing SS + Jump is a small change, but it has a HUGE effect on gameplay.

I find it ironic that so many people on these forums were aggro haters, yet many are arguing against something that would nerf aggro. Oh, and you'd still be able to bypass proxies quickly by running around corners and then running back quickly. You just wouldn't be able to do that with a merc there because, well, he's going to shoot you.

[InvisibleMan999]

you can't put proxy and laser mines in places the spy can't quickchaff them (except some climbing passages)

Yeah, I'm thinking chaff probably shouldn't affect proxies at all. As far as lasers, I've always considered them to be surprise mines. You put them in places that people don't expect a mine and are moving relatively quickly, usually after just rounding a corner.

Lasers are generally fairly easy to disarm if you know they're there, and I guess I"m fine with that. Poisons are designed as the more secure, yet slightly less lethal way of protecting a doorway.

So I guess I'd say keep allowing chaff to go through walls but make proxies immune to chaff. Would that fix the problem?

[Spekkio]

So I guess I'd say keep allowing chaff to go through walls but make proxies immune to chaff. Would that fix the problem?

No. You're not considering laser mines, poison mines, and spy traps. The point I'm making is that if you are being sneaky and careful, you'll have the time to draw your gun and shoot the chaff. Only when you are running around with no concern about being detected will you need the ability for chaff to go through walls.

Also, chaff needs to be able to affect proxies. Take Schermerhorn, for example. People place mines in the sewers in such a way that climbing sets them off, and then you blow up. If you have chaff, you can fire one up there and bypass it.

[InvisibleMan999]

Also, chaff needs to be able to affect proxies. Take Schermerhorn, for example. People place mines in the sewers in such a way that climbing sets them off, and then you blow up. If you have chaff, you can fire one up there and bypass it.

Having a slow climb should fix that problem though.

As far as lasers and spytraps, generally you'll place them far enough from the door that a chaff won't take them out if someone just drops it there.

And really, it's not that I'm against chaff not going through/bending around walls as a concept, I'm more worried about actually getting it to work right. I'd love to slow down aggro players as much as you would, but I can imagine so much cheese coming out of a change like this. All I can think of is mines or traps placed in such a way that you cannot chaff them due to the new way chaff works.

So while you're fixing one problem, I feel like the solution will create many more problems and make chaff too unreliable.

[Gawain]

just give it a larger radius

[Spekkio]

Having a slow climb should fix that problem though.

I'm talking about climbing up ledges. You don't need to have two different speeds for this.

Another nasty example where chaff needs to affect proxies is the coops into office on Aquarius.

All I can think of is mines or traps placed in such a way that you cannot chaff them due to the new way chaff works.

Tell me of an example where this will be a NEW problem once chaff is changed. I can think of examples where you can't bypass lasers now regardless of whether or not chaff goes through walls. I can't think of any spot where disabling that function would suddenly create a situation where chaff worked before, but doesn't work now.

I already conceded that the lasers on traps and mines might need to return to PT length to compensate.

I'm not really for a blanket increase of chaff radius off the bat, but it might be necessary. If it is increased, it definitely shouldn't even approach the PT radius -- that was just absurd.

I'm more worried about actually getting it to work right.

Let the programmers worry about getting it to work right.

[InvisibleMan999]

Having a slow climb should fix that problem though.

I'm talking about climbing up ledges. You don't need to have two different speeds for this.

Another nasty example where chaff needs to affect proxies is the coops into office on Aquarius.

I'm thinking that those animations should just not trigger a proxy. Any animation you're capable of doing, whether getting up from a ledge or climbing into a window or whatever should be able to be done slow enough as to not trigger a proxy.

Whether we want to make a "slow" version of each animation or just want to say that normal speed animations of these kinds don't trigger proxies I'm not sure, but I think you should definitely be able to get by a proxy if you know it's there. I've never really liked the autoscrew proxies that just go by animations anyway.

Tell me of an example where this will be a NEW problem once chaff is changed. I can think of examples where you can't bypass lasers now regardless of whether or not chaff goes through walls. I can't think of any spot where disabling that function would suddenly create a situation where chaff worked before, but doesn't work now.

Well, I'm thinking more of firing in a chaff into a room and the chaff 'missing' the mine because the mine happens to be slightly around a corner or in a little niche or whatever. Obviously it's hard to think of these things now, because chaff doesn't work that way, so we haven't been looking for them. But give it a couple weeks and people will find optimal spots for mines to be virtually unhittable with chaff.

There are right now a lot of various things you can do with mines. Have them half sticking out of walls, sometimes have them 'inside' various barriers, behind objects or what not. If chaff is indeed simply a straight explosion, as opposed to something that bends or goes through walls, then I suspect people will find ways to evade it. And given that many mines require chaff to evade right now, if we take away the only means of avoiding them, mines will become too secure.

Though I suspect this issue may well be more of a coding issue than a balance one, so we should hear what the programmers have to say. They can probably be the most able to think up an effective algorithm to do what we want to do and avoid what we don't want to happen, because really, I agree with you about detracting from quick chaff rush aggro, but I fear that there are more side effects than you have anticipated.

[Gawain]

spekkio posted great examples. there's nothing to discuss about that.
the easiest way to solve the programming issues that comes to my mind is to make quickdropped chaffs work only in straigt lines, but chaffs shooted with the ss work like they do now.

[Spekkio]

Well, I'm thinking more of firing in a chaff into a room and the chaff 'missing' the mine because the mine happens to be slightly around a corner or in a little niche or whatever. Obviously it's hard to think of these things now, because chaff doesn't work that way, so we haven't been looking for them. But give it a couple weeks and people will find optimal spots for mines to be virtually unhittable with chaff.

There is a very obvious visual cue when chaff shuts down the mine. Proxies stop blinking (could program them to stop beeping, too), and the lasers disappear. I really don't foresee this being an issue.

Have them half sticking out of walls, sometimes have them 'inside' various barriers, behind objects or what not.

Walls =/= textures. Regardless, the mines that can be stuck "inside" stuff like lights and such shouldn't exist in the first place.

[Gawain]

if there's only a proxy, you don't need to chaff it in most situations.
"boosting" mines this way won't hurt the gameplay. if i die because of a mine, 80%of the time it's because of no pieppiep, and 10% because of unknown bugmine in texture/lagging into it/chaff/slow mode not working. assuming we won't have these bugs (besides lagg maybe), mines need some boost.
once again, one look on spekkio's fix list shows the solution: instant laser mines, 10s timer for poison mines, fixed chaff.

[Farley4Fan]

Mines don't need a boost, it all has to do with placement and what kind of mine is laid down.  Something useful is laying a poison where there are usually laser trip wires, where it can't be affected by a chafff ( out of its range ) and where there isn't a health pack nearby.  An example of a place like this is in greek where the sea tunnel lasers are.  You put it behind the counter on the left side and shut the sea tunnel doors.  This way, its laser looks like a laser trip wire and they think they disable it when they chaff it.  When they are poisoned they can't reach the health pack in time because the doors are shut.  I don't think that mines need a boost, they are meant to kill stupid spies who are agressive and not aggro.  They are not meant to kill smart stealthy spies as well, that would make them overpowered.

[Gawain]

you talk complete bullshit. it's hard for me, but i'll try to ingore your posts full of bloody ignorance in the future.

[Farley4Fan]

I talk bullshit and you say mines need a boost?  WTF?  Mines are meant to kill uncareful retarded spies.  If you don't like them, then don't bring them into a match.  Plain and fucking simple.  That is like giving frags a boost, it doesn't need a damn boost whatsoever.  Most people bring them into every game, get a few kills with them maybe, use them to defend objectives or choke points on the map.  If you think a gadget that can do all of that needs a boost then you are fucking retarded.

Please, I doubt anybody besides you think they deserve a boost, THAT is TOTAL bullshit.

The only things that might need boosts are flares, tazer, maybe heartbeat, and maybe spy bullets.  I can't even begin to think how you would even mention giving mines a boost.  Totally ridiculous.

[InvisibleMan999]

I talk bullshit and you say mines need a boost?  WTF?  Mines are meant to kill uncareful retarded spies.  If you don't like them, then don't bring them into a match.  Plain and fucking simple.  That is like giving frags a boost, it doesn't need a damn boost whatsoever.  Most people bring them into every game, get a few kills with them maybe, use them to defend objectives or choke points on the map.  If you think a gadget that can do all of that needs a boost then you are fucking retarded.

Yes, some mines need a boost, especially laser. You are aware that you can just trip a laser mine then run back and you won't even die. That's because there's a delay between triggering the mine and the mine actually detonating.

About the only real thing I disagree with on Spekkio's list of mine improvements is the poison mines. Personally I don't think they need to be more deadly, but I don't think it would impact gameplay that much if they were a bit nastier.

the easiest way to solve the programming issues that comes to my mind is to make quickdropped chaffs work only in straigt lines, but chaffs shooted with the ss work like they do now.

I'd be on board with that. I have no problem with nerfing quickdrop chaff a bit.