Training Mode

[Spekkio]

Why more frags? I mean it's already one of the most popular merc choices out there. No need to give people more of them.

Two reasons:

1. The number 4 just doesn't make any sense to me.
2. Reduce the reliance on backpack.

Yes, they are popular. However, with no insta-grenades, they'd kill a lot less often.

The taser doesn't overlap with charge, it tends to overlap more with just the gun bash your merc does when he's too tired to charge or berserk, because that's about the same range. In fact, most of the time you can't even taser a spy who rushes you and elbows you, and that just sucks. Seriously, if it had some range, it'd be useable.

I already included a range increase. The PT range was too extreme, which is why I said somewhere inbetween is best. Even then, it will still overlap with the charge.

I assume you mean that you can't hear security failure messages while in EMF or MT. That'd be a pretty huge nerf. I'm not sure if I'd want that.

No. I was referring to a gadget. You know, that "eye in the sky" thing.

Only problem I can see is that you can potentially lock down an objective with these things for awhile. A full pack of 5 incendiaries can lock down an objective for 1 minute and 15 seconds. That might be too good... I imagine if you've got that close game near the end where you're guarding an objective, you can just spam that objective with incendiaries and the spy pretty much can't do anything. Even if he KOs you, the burning cloud lasts long enough for you to get up.

Maps have more than 2 entrances. As far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you. Also, if you spam all 5 of your grenades in the first 1:15, that means that there is 8:45 - 10:45 of time where that merc is playing with only 3 gadgets. Good for him.

[InvisibleMan999]

Also the gasmask isn't really obligatory - i don't take it on muse/ orph/ factory/ missile, just because i don't get cammed alot there.

Are you kidding? Yeah it is.

80% of spies take smoke and almost all spies take cams.

If you play against players of any reasonable skill level, you absolutely need a gas mask.

[Spekkio]

Mask is required more for cams than smoke. Having said that, the slowdown induced from smoke is probably a bit too high, which basically forces the use of gasmask.

[InvisibleMan999]

Two reasons:

1. The number 4 just doesn't make any sense to me.
2. Reduce the reliance on backpack.

Yes, they are popular. However, with no insta-grenades, they'd kill a lot less often.

I'm not sure why 5 makes any more sense than 4. In PT, where the number was 5, frags were required a bit more because you had no gas mask. So that if you got smoked outside an objective, a common tactic, you often had to rely on frag bouncing to hit the spy, because you couldn't get there yourself. So I think a reduction of nades was appropriate for CT.

As far as reducing reliance on the backpack, I doubt that handing out one more frag will do that.

I don't feel like we have to decrease reliance on the backpack, but rather encourage people to take other things. Taking a backpack is generally a sign that you don't see any other useful gadgets to take and would rather just have more of the stuff you have now. If you had a choice between 5 spytraps, a PT style taser and maybe those upgraded incendiary grenades, it's possible some people may choose not to take a backpack.

[Gawain]

the slow down is a little bit too strong, though you can charge through most of the smoke.

i'm kinda surprised that spekkio likes the idea of burning phosphorous nades. i think it would be better if the dust stays in the air/on the ground for about 12s and one can shoot at it to lighten it resulting in doing continuous damage that hinders the spies from staying within the radius, but consumes the effect more quickly. another idea: the dust could fall slowly to the ground covering a slightely larger area and staying there for quite some time. but a spy running through it wouldn't lighten up in the dark/emf but only leaving some footsteps.

[Spekkio]

Phospho grenades are relatively useless in PT, so having them do some damage, even if it's small, could help boost them up to par.

The other reason for 5 grenades is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with 5 grenades in PT. I really don't know why they took one away in return for giving two in the backpack. Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.

[frvge]

Point, click, kill.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner of the "describe a good motto/catchphrase for the Mercs"-contest.
;D j/k.

[deathcrow666]

It was annoying when noobs or just jack asss camped in ther sapwns

how about not playing with n00bs?

[/quote]

dude are you stupid READ!!!!! I didn't say only noobs for one and two its hard not to now days ...idiot. you need to stop bitching

[derfy]

As far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you.

That assumes that damage won't cause the spy to stop hacking.

[Spekkio]

Well, it shouldn't.

[Farley4Fan]

Well, it has.  Just not poisoning of the spy, any other damage stopped him from hacking.

[InvisibleMan999]

Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.

Well that's probably exactly why they decided to take away a frag. Mostly because everyone took them.

One system of game balance is that you keep nerfing something (or boosting something) until it's no longer a must-take or a never-take. If frags finds its way onto everyones equipment list, then they hit it with the nerf bat.

The change I'm not quite so sure about was the limit on spytraps. Why only 3 traps? It basically leaves no advantage over just taking mines.

[Gawain]

As far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you.

That assumes that damage won't cause the spy to stop hacking.

Well, it shouldn't.

this is a large change in the game mechanics that needs to be considered carefully. atm one can't do much frags with nades as it's easy to avoid them (assumed there is no lagg/sound loss), so if only phosphorous nades could stop spies from hacking an objective for some seconds by doing continuous damage, they would certainly be an alternative to frags/mines etc.

these are the main reasons why i die most times playing spy: soundloss, bug mines, lagg charges, lagg that hinders me from shocking dodging mercs, not knowing the mercs position, disk objectives and not to forget, nonattention or rl stuff. you probably noticed i didn't mention frags, and bug free mines and no soundloss reduces mines to what they are intended to (with chaff not working through walls): kill rushing spies. the reason everyone takes frags and mines is that there is that there are no good alternatives.

[Spekkio]

Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.

Well that's probably exactly why they decided to take away a frag. Mostly because everyone took them.

One system of game balance is that you keep nerfing something (or boosting something) until it's no longer a must-take or a never-take. If frags finds its way onto everyones equipment list, then they hit it with the nerf bat.

The change I'm not quite so sure about was the limit on spytraps. Why only 3 traps? It basically leaves no advantage over just taking mines.

My guess is they lowered equipment numbers to account for backpack, and not because too many people were taking frags. There were only 6 equipment items in PT, anyway, with flares and phospho nades being the odd-men out.

If you want to make backpack a less "must take" item, you have to give mercs more equipment to start with. One more frag and 2 more spy traps (able to place max 5 on the map at once) would definitely help, since among the team it makes for 2 more frags (the size of one half of a backpack) and 4 more spy traps (the size of what's in the backpack).

[InvisibleMan999]

If you want to make backpack a less "must take" item, you have to give mercs more equipment to start with. One more frag and 2 more spy traps (able to place max 5 on the map at once) would definitely help, since among the team it makes for 2 more frags (the size of one half of a backpack) and 4 more spy traps (the size of what's in the backpack).

I don't feel like a spytrap change will affect backpacks much, because most of the time the choice is between taking a backpack or taking spytraps. Changing spytraps actually competes more with mines than a backpack.

The best way to make a backpack less useful is to have the other stuff more useful. Taking a backpack is effectively a vote of 'no confidence' in the other gadgets. You take a backpack because you want more of what you already have. If the other gadgets were better, then there would be more incentive to take them instead. It seems that the levels I don't take a backpack happen to be the levels where I want that slot for something else, like a camnet on river mall for instance, or sometimes spytraps on museum.


Also, a backpack may actually carry too much equipment in some cases.

Consider that a backpack carries 4 mines (2 for you, 2 for your partner), which is more than you get originally by just taking mines. It carries effectively the same number of frags (4) and so on. I wonder if we could possibly cut the amount of equipment in the backpack... perhaps have it carry only half what it does for the original player, but keep the partner's ration the same (this would encourage more teamwork).

The other change if you're looking to weaken the backpack is to have it hold only equipment for your partner (though more of it). So the only time you can ever use it is if you go to your partner and refill, which makes it slightly inconvenient.