Project Stealth

i think this type of objective could use some changes. this came out after some brainstorming:
-a dropped disk stays wherever it is until grabbed by either a merc or spy
-possibility to get more than one disc out of one server, so you can also take one when it's taken
-possibility to change disks with your mate
-possibility to carry more than one disk at a time
-(slow climb move: it's fucking necessary as the lack of it is destroying so much good stealth tactics)
discuss
edit: - option to drop the disk whenever you want to hide it for later pickup

-yes
-no
-yes
-maybe
-yes

- Already in so yes.
- No.
- Yes.
- No, would unbalance things IMO.
- Possibly, but again I'm not sure, get back to you on that.

Killa, they dissapear eventually.

-Yes.
-No thanks.  1 is just fine as there is only 1 drop off for that disc anyways.
-Yeah, why not?
-Maybe one that your buddy dropped and your own.
-Hell freaking yes.  I'd like to see a system where the further you push your mouse wheel, the faster you move.  It's already been discussed.  Hopefully you can control ALL animation speed with your wheel once you engage the animation.  That would be awesome.

I feel as though you should have the option to drop the disk whenever you want, as opposed to keeping it as a burden the entire time. Things change every second that could reverse your decision to have the disk. Why can't I take it, drop it off somewhere/store it, and hide it for later?

I don't think you should be able to have more than 1 though...unless you grab one, drop it somewhere, then grab another and drop it somewhere. Rambo is right though: disks shouldn't just...poof....gone.

Agree there.

-yes
-no
-yes
-no
-yes

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 05, 2008, 07:49:04 AM
I feel as though you should have the option to drop the disk whenever you want, as opposed to keeping it as a burden the entire time. Things change every second that could reverse your decision to have the disk. Why can't I take it, drop it off somewhere/store it, and hide it for later?

I don't think you should be able to have more than 1 though...unless you grab one, drop it somewhere, then grab another and drop it somewhere. Rambo is right though: disks shouldn't just...poof....gone.

nice idea. i'll add it to the original post. the only balance problem i forsee is on bad maps with lots of safe spy-only zones like vents, but those maps suck anyways.

1- No. It's not going to be fun for a merc if he loses a disc in a vent and the spies basically win because the disk is close enough to the end to be retrievable and the mercs can't return it.

2-Not a terrible idea, also makes it a bit more of a priority to defend the disk pickup point instead of just the dropoff like most mercs do.

3-Don't really see the point. But I guess you could hand the disc off.

4-Yeah. I don't see why you're limited to one disk. If people want to carry two, let them carry two.

5-Yeah slow climb is essential for everything.

Personally I'd rather see some kind of nerf to the disk radar, because I feel like that really screws up the stealth aspect of the game, turning disk delivery into just straight up run and gun. I was thinking maybe just have the disk act more like a presence detector than full blown radar, so you can still possibly sneak past a merc.

i sneaked past mercs endless times. if you do it right, slow mode isn't too slow. the problem is rather that once you climb or jump down anywhere you appear on the fucking radar.

How about you make it so the spy HAS to stand up to pick up the disc?  That way he can't store it in a vent and come back later to retrieve it while the merc is just watching it lol.

That would fix that problem.

interesting balancing idea.

lol that will make the realism lovers shit their pants, but it would help a bunch if your ideas are considered and in the game.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 06, 2008, 02:57:50 AM
lol that will make the realism lovers shit their pants, but it would help a bunch if your ideas are considered and in the game.

hmm what about the ability to hand off the disk to your friend , so that in corperates co operative,

so if one spy quickly does a fake and passes it to thier partner the merc charging the spy with the disk , has no disk and is given to his partner for the win =).

Did you read the op?

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 05, 2008, 07:49:04 AM
I feel as though you should have the option to drop the disk whenever you want, as opposed to keeping it as a burden the entire time. Things change every second that could reverse your decision to have the disk. Why can't I take it, drop it off somewhere/store it, and hide it for later?

I don't think you should be able to have more than 1 though...unless you grab one, drop it somewhere, then grab another and drop it somewhere. Rambo is right though: disks shouldn't just...poof....gone.

When the disk is dropped it would give the spies position away and show up on merc screen. right?

Yes to slowclimb, makes me mad when u need to climb a pole but u cnt cos ull show up on radar.

Some interesting ideas.  I don't really like the ability to remove more than one disk from the computer or the ability to carry more than one disk at a time.  Handing the disk off to a partner, while I can't think of any major use for it, I would like the option.  Who knows, if you had the ability to do it, it could be something handy to use.

Putting the disk down on the ground is a nice idea, but it raises some possible balance issues.

I think these ideas are good enough to at least consider and possibly playtest with to see what works and what doesn't.

Passing the disc to your mate is useful if the carrier is unable to heal himself on the field. That would help spies to maximize their chances of getting out alive. In any other case, I think this feature would be useless.

I honestly don't feel like we should be needing anything else than slowclimb, or some rule which makes it possible to manouver  vertically without giving out a signal. Otherwise, the discs are fine as they are.

the slow-climb move is definitely one of the most needed fixes for stealth players, i think we can all agree on this.

passing the disc to your mate doesn't screw balance, but gives the players more freedom (well it allows more spam: if one spy is out of flash and the other one has a full battery of smoke left, switching would make sense; however, as thist requires the spies to come together it's balanced), so i count it as a nice-to-have-feature.

allowing the spies to take one disk out of one disk obj each makes perfect sense for the sake of realism, but it's quite questionable in terms of balance. as it's possible for the map maker to implement it anyways (simply 2 disk obj next to each other with the same drop points), i think we can drop this idea.

the most tricky idea is clearly westfall's idea of being able to hide the disk somewhere. it would allow totally new stealth tactics, so it would be awesome if we can find a way to make it balanced (giving the merc some info when dropping the disk in radar range, not being able to drop it in vents, etc). happy brainstorming every1 =)

Just keep in mind my suggestion, only in places where you can stand up can you pick up the the disc.  For example if you take it into a vent you won't be able to drop it.  OR, you could drop it but then you couldn't pick it back up again.  I know it doesn't sound realistic but it balances it.

Dropping it somewhere doesn't really matter if it glows bright orange like it currently does.  Maybe it should only light up when you are near it?  Sounds better to me.

Btw, does any dev want to confirm if it will be possible to control the speed of all animations?  What I mean by this is once the animation is activated you could control the speed of it with the mouse wheel.  Maybe clicking the mouse wheel before you push the climb button would make it so the climb animation doesn't start until you start slowly pushing the wheel forward.  Is this possible?  If so, it would be awesome and fix a lot of issues.

First we need more animations...

Lol of course  ;D  But would it be possible?  I know it's a bit early to really say, but would you guys be up to that? 

What about the community?  Would you guys all want to have some sort of movement based on the a sensitive wheel?  I know I've come to love it by playing on console for years with analog sticks.  When I made the switch over to PC I got pretty dissapointed when I realized that it wasn't possible to control your speed and instead you have to push a button for slow mode. 

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 02:01:27 AM
Lol of course  ;D  But would it be possible?  I know it's a bit early to really say, but would you guys be up to that? 

What about the community?  Would you guys all want to have some sort of movement based on the a sensitive wheel?  I know I've come to love it by playing on console for years with analog sticks.  When I made the switch over to PC I got pretty dissapointed when I realized that it wasn't possible to control your speed and instead you have to push a button for slow mode. 

hahaha...i scroll my wheel down to make me go slower. I think its already present Papa. Check it out.

Doesn't it just go to a preset speed when you scroll it down?  Or does it go slow depending on how much you are scrolling it?  I mean is it sensitive to it, or is just like you are pushing a button by wheeling it down?  Just switches my equipment, but then again, that's just my setup.  And I don't use a keyboard that much because I'm still getting used to it.  Most of the time I use my good ole 360 controller and there is no such thing as "sensitve analog stick" movement anymore.  No matter how much you move it, it only goes one preset speed.  Remember, I'm newb to PC lmao

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 02:10:11 AM
Doesn't it just go to a preset speed when you scroll it down?  Or does it go slow depending on how much you are scrolling it?  I mean is it sensitive to it, or is just like you are pushing a button by wheeling it down?  Just switches my equipment, but then again, that's just my setup.  And I don't use a keyboard that much because I'm still getting used to it.  Most of the time I use my good ole 360 controller and there is no such thing as "sensitve analog stick" movement anymore.  No matter how much you move it, it only goes one preset speed.  Remember, I'm newb to PC lmao

You only get 2 speeds in CT....normal and slow, so it alternates b/w the 2. I don't like switching my eq with the mouse wheel. Doesn't do it for me.

On console you have a lot of speeds depending on how much you are pushing the analog stick forward.  That's what I miss from the console - PC switch.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 02:14:24 AM
On console you have a lot of speeds depending on how much you are pushing the analog stick forward.  That's what I miss from the console - PC switch.

Can some1 else verify that there were multiple speeds on the XBox CT version. Not saying you're lying. Just want another person to yay or nay so we can definitely implement more than one speed. Spekkio suggested this sometime back.

I can tell you "yay" lol

Unless my disc was sooo screwed up that it gave me extra features  :D

Kind of weird that this was a suggestion and I've been playing with it since SvM came out.

even if there are several speeds on the console version, it doesn't make any sense to use more than the one's the pc players are using. crouch (or crouch-dive) to get somewhere silently, slow mode to not set off motion tracking and mines or go extra silently through vents/ceiling/grab position, and running to move as fucking fast as you can.
different speeds would only make sense with a sound system like spekkio suggested.

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 11, 2008, 02:16:13 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 02:14:24 AM
On console you have a lot of speeds depending on how much you are pushing the analog stick forward.  That's what I miss from the console - PC switch.

Can some1 else verify that there were multiple speeds on the XBox CT version. Not saying you're lying. Just want another person to yay or nay so we can definitely implement more than one speed. Spekkio suggested this sometime back.

There was more than a two speed system on xbox. Thats the one thing the xbox did better than the pc. It also makes the game alot harder however, on xbox that is (eg if you're about to disable a mine, and a merc shoots you and you shit yourself and accidently go to far up on the analog stick, then boom. It makes it alot realer though.

To tell you guys the truth now that i have played both(pc version roxorz now since i got my 360 controller to work for spy) that the pc version is better.  One reason i liked the pc version is the toggle to walk super slow.  In xbox everyone had to pull their gun out to avoid getting blown up by proxies, in pc its awesome cus you can just press the slow walk and your good.  Keep it how pc is ;) its far better. 

Quote from: Rambo on April 11, 2008, 08:18:16 AM
even if there are several speeds on the console version, it doesn't make any sense to use more than the one's the pc players are using. crouch (or crouch-dive) to get somewhere silently, slow mode to not set off motion tracking and mines or go extra silently through vents/ceiling/grab position, and running to move as fucking fast as you can.
different speeds would only make sense with a sound system like spekkio suggested.

It adds realism!!!! two modes is fucking retarded and you know it, stop defending the undefendable. XBOX SPEED SYSTEM > PC SPEED SYSTEM. Play it on xbox, and youll see just how much more ownage it is.

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:22:52 PM
To tell you guys the truth now that i have played both(pc version roxorz now since i got my 360 controller to work for spy) that the pc version is better.  One reason i liked the pc version is the toggle to walk super slow.  In xbox everyone had to pull their gun out to avoid getting blown up by proxies, in pc its awesome cus you can just press the slow walk and your good.  Keep it how pc is ;) its far better. 

Thats not true, just move the damn analog up only slightly!

Its not ownage freeman, plus this isn't super realism game anyway .  Just my opinion, never heard of you b4 freeman whats your gt.

Quote from: FR33M4N on April 11, 2008, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:22:52 PM
To tell you guys the truth now that i have played both(pc version roxorz now since i got my 360 controller to work for spy) that the pc version is better.  One reason i liked the pc version is the toggle to walk super slow.  In xbox everyone had to pull their gun out to avoid getting blown up by proxies, in pc its awesome cus you can just press the slow walk and your good.  Keep it how pc is ;) its far better. 

Thats not true, just move the damn analog up only slightly!

Um your wrong everyone(that was good) usually pulled out their gun with hbd. 

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:25:37 PM
Its not ownage freeman, plus this isn't super realism game anyway .  Just my opinion, never heard of you b4 freeman whats your gt.

XX FR33M4N XX :D. It adds tension as much as realism. When uve just got sprayed by a merc its alot harder to keep that analog stick in the same place, to disable the proxies because you're (in want for a better word) nervouse he might see you again or something. The tension the xbox speed system brang is insane, and i dont think anyone could argue with that  ;).

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:26:35 PM

Quote from: FR33M4N on April 11, 2008, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:22:52 PM
To tell you guys the truth now that i have played both(pc version roxorz now since i got my 360 controller to work for spy) that the pc version is better.  One reason i liked the pc version is the toggle to walk super slow.  In xbox everyone had to pull their gun out to avoid getting blown up by proxies, in pc its awesome cus you can just press the slow walk and your good.  Keep it how pc is ;) its far better. 

Thats not true, just move the damn analog up only slightly!

Um your wrong everyone(that was good) usually pulled out their gun with hbd. 

I didnt need to. I must be too pro  ;). Tbh i played it alot more on pc than xbox. Even still its not neccesary for you to pull out HBS to disable proxy on xbox, that's what i was trying to say.

Ahh now i remember you, my gts are t2c lebron(haven't played much ct under this) PointedCow, and cF the answer.  Yea it does add tension ill agree with you there BUT i rather be more effective then be more tense if that makes since.  I rather win basically then die from a mine that i shouldn't have died from.

Quote from: FR33M4N on April 11, 2008, 06:29:05 PM

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:26:35 PM

Quote from: FR33M4N on April 11, 2008, 06:24:40 PM

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:22:52 PM
To tell you guys the truth now that i have played both(pc version roxorz now since i got my 360 controller to work for spy) that the pc version is better.  One reason i liked the pc version is the toggle to walk super slow.  In xbox everyone had to pull their gun out to avoid getting blown up by proxies, in pc its awesome cus you can just press the slow walk and your good.  Keep it how pc is ;) its far better. 

Thats not true, just move the damn analog up only slightly!

Um your wrong everyone(that was good) usually pulled out their gun with hbd. 

I didnt need to. I must be too pro  ;). Tbh i played it alot more on pc than xbox. Even still its not neccesary for you to pull out HBS to disable proxy on xbox, that's what i was trying to say.

Yea its not necessary for HBD but it you use to see if any mercs or running up on yea so you don't get blind sided while disabling a mine.

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:30:23 PM
Ahh now i remember you, my gts are t2c lebron(haven't played much ct under this) PointedCow, and cF the answer.  Yea it does add tension ill agree with you there BUT i rather be more effective then be more tense if that makes since.  I rather win basically then die from a mine that i shouldn't have died from.

If a better speed system was added, one could easily adjust to it. IMO the xbox speed system is perfect. I think the PC speed system is overpowering if you know what i mean. I mean it is really easy to disable a proxy on pc. Maybe disabling proxies should be harder, as it is really easy on pc. There is really no skill in taking a proxy off in PC (provided you hear it) but with xbox you must hold you're nerve which is why i like it alot.  Now I know that alot of people will disagree with what ive just said but i suggest you try playing ct on xbox just to see what i mean.

making basic stuff harder by making the controls harder is a really bad idea.
we don't need any new speed system unless we implement something like spekkio's noise system.

Quote from: FR33M4N on April 11, 2008, 06:35:03 PM

Quote from: T2C LeBron on April 11, 2008, 06:30:23 PM
Ahh now i remember you, my gts are t2c lebron(haven't played much ct under this) PointedCow, and cF the answer.  Yea it does add tension ill agree with you there BUT i rather be more effective then be more tense if that makes since.  I rather win basically then die from a mine that i shouldn't have died from.

If a better speed system was added, one could easily adjust to it. IMO the xbox speed system is perfect. I think the PC speed system is overpowering if you know what i mean. I mean it is really easy to disable a proxy on pc. Maybe disabling proxies should be harder, as it is really easy on pc. There is really no skill in taking a proxy off in PC (provided you hear it) but with xbox you must hold you're nerve which is why i like it alot.  Now I know that alot of people will disagree with what ive just said but i suggest you try playing ct on xbox just to see what i mean.

hmm maybe my 2k + hours of ct on xbox isn't enough yea i always played it on xbox and just started playing on pc. 

just wanted to had PT had this feature and nobody liked is thats why it was changed ...
you would have to scroll your mouse wheel ALL the way to the top or bottom to get the desiered effects, there was in between speeds, but they either got u killed by mines cause u were going to fast or by mercs cause you were going to slow.

Make the scrolling speed change/ 2 speed mode an option.

FR33M4N: It's impossible anyways since this is a PC mod and there's no analog sticks on PC.

Quote from: Rambo on April 11, 2008, 08:18:16 AM
even if there are several speeds on the console version, it doesn't make any sense to use more than the one's the pc players are using. crouch (or crouch-dive) to get somewhere silently, slow mode to not set off motion tracking and mines or go extra silently through vents/ceiling/grab position, and running to move as fucking fast as you can.
different speeds would only make sense with a sound system like spekkio suggested.

Maybe you want to move super slow to maybe not grab attention?  Going slow makes you a lot less noticeable but you still get to move.  You can't do that on PC.  It's either, slow enough to not get blown up, or too fast.  You have wayy more choices on console, it's a subconsience thing.  You don't have to settle for 2 preset speeds, it's more of a gradient.  It feels way more natural like you are actually controlling the spy, and not telling him what to do with a solid button press for speed 1 and speed 2.

More choices are never bad, especially because it doesn't make the game harder to control, in fact it makes it hell of a lot easier.  Now until you actually play it and see for yourself I suggest you stop making these retarded biased assumptions.  "Oh, it's on console, there's no need."  Stop.  There's plenty of things that a controller can do that a keyboard can't, and vice versa.  I say a combo of the two is the best solution if at all possible.  Making the mouse wheel sensitive would be awesome - maybe not even sensitive, but just like 4-5 speeds that you can scroll through that switch on clicks.

Not sure how the thread got hijacked down this road, but...

CT's singleplayer works this way.  You can scroll the mouse wheel to speed up or slow down.  When I first started playing versus, I was disappointed that you didn't have this much control over your speed.  However, a system identical to the way CT's SP handled it would probably be a pain in the ass in a multiplayer environment.  Having to scroll the wheel that much before you can run away would probably lead to a lot of deaths.  Now, I'm all for having more choices for speed, but you would have to keep in mind that if you are in the slowest speed and a merc spots you, odds are if you have to scroll the wheel up a few times to get into the "run the fuck away" speed you will probably die.

If it can be implemented without being a burden, then I say go for it.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 11:13:21 PM

Quote from: Rambo on April 11, 2008, 08:18:16 AM
even if there are several speeds on the console version, it doesn't make any sense to use more than the one's the pc players are using. crouch (or crouch-dive) to get somewhere silently, slow mode to not set off motion tracking and mines or go extra silently through vents/ceiling/grab position, and running to move as fucking fast as you can.
different speeds would only make sense with a sound system like spekkio suggested.

Maybe you want to move super slow to maybe not grab attention?  Going slow makes you a lot less noticeable but you still get to move.  You can't do that on PC.  It's either, slow enough to not get blown up, or too fast.  You have wayy more choices on console, it's a subconsience thing.  You don't have to settle for 2 preset speeds, it's more of a gradient.  It feels way more natural like you are actually controlling the spy, and not telling him what to do with a solid button press for speed 1 and speed 2.

More choices are never bad, especially because it doesn't make the game harder to control, in fact it makes it hell of a lot easier.  Now until you actually play it and see for yourself I suggest you stop making these retarded biased assumptions.  "Oh, it's on console, there's no need."  Stop.  There's plenty of things that a controller can do that a keyboard can't, and vice versa.  I say a combo of the two is the best solution if at all possible.  Making the mouse wheel sensitive would be awesome - maybe not even sensitive, but just like 4-5 speeds that you can scroll through that switch on clicks.

I have played on both and i prefer on pc because if i want to move without making noise i will go crouch full speed, if i want to go crouch slow without hitting mines ill use that.  For competitive players this all the more better because its effective, why do you a crouch speed that is faster then slow crouch but is slower then fast and still blows you up from mines??? wtf there is no point for it. 

Exactly Hyrule.  It's so easy to switch between speeds on console version.  This is just one example where analog sticks win.  It's not a pain in the ass to change speeds, in fact, it's an almost instant change and goes by your reflexes.  You don't even have to move the stick half of an inch to go to full speed.  Between that half inch is a good amount of speeds to choose from.  If you don't know how fast you have to go to blow a mine up then you are stupid.  There's a visual change to let you know. 

Lebron, as I said before, there's a visual change to let you know when you are able to detonate mines.  I hope you know that.  The reason to have super slow speeds is to decrease visibility.  I really don't feel like explaining this to anyone right now, it's too obvious and difficult to explain.

I'm looking forward to be tapping W uber-fast to run away.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2008, 08:08:49 AM
Exactly Hyrule.  It's so easy to switch between speeds on console version.  This is just one example where analog sticks win.  It's not a pain in the ass to change speeds, in fact, it's an almost instant change and goes by your reflexes.  You don't even have to move the stick half of an inch to go to full speed.  Between that half inch is a good amount of speeds to choose from.  If you don't know how fast you have to go to blow a mine up then you are stupid.  There's a visual change to let you know. 

Lebron, as I said before, there's a visual change to let you know when you are able to detonate mines.  I hope you know that.  The reason to have super slow speeds is to decrease visibility.  I really don't feel like explaining this to anyone right now, it's too obvious and difficult to explain.

i get what your saying but i like the idea of a slow button maybe both would be nice ;D :D ;)

can this off-topic hijacking stop now?

No.  8)

It's not really off topic, we are discussing multiple speeds and that affects disk objectives.  But there's not much to talk about.  Don't the devs already have a general mindset as to what disk objectives will be like?  Maybe a few of these suggestions (in this thread) will get in, hopefully.

you're not discussion different speeds, you continue posting bullshit-spam about multiple speeds not even trying to counter our strong arguments. you also set it in no relation to disk type obj.

lol wut?  we are discussing multiple speeds.  No matter what relation we set it in it will always affect the disk objective.  Arguments?  I agree with what most of you say, including your first post Rambo.  It's just some people would rather have 2 preset speeds instead of a bigger selection and that boggles me.

there is no need for a bigger selection, it only adds complexity where it's not needed. you're situation where you wanna move in a speed just between slow-crouch and normal crouch so that the merc doesn't see you doesn't exist.

i was confused here. i thought he was talking about the disk hunt gametype. :lol:

Quote from: Rambo on April 13, 2008, 10:32:01 PM
there is no need for a bigger selection, it only adds complexity where it's not needed. you're situation where you wanna move in a speed just between slow-crouch and normal crouch so that the merc doesn't see you doesn't exist.

Is moving your finger a half centimeter forward so complex?  Get real now.  You've really never played xbox version, it's much better for controlling the spy.  Maybe not the merc, but spy controls for console > than PC controls.  Merc is the other way around ofc.  Maybe you want to inch yourself into a position.  But because you only have a few speeds it's much harder to pinpoint yourself in a position you want.

actually, it's not. you just lack the "W"-tipping skillz the pc players have lol

Quote from: greenday5494 on April 13, 2008, 11:27:06 PM
i was confused here. i thought he was talking about the disk hunt gametype. :lol:

we actually would be if papaskull would stop this offtopic bullshit. this is what i really hate most about papaskull: he has been proven wrong, but still repeats the same bullshit over and over again.

Wait wait wait, hold up.  Proven wrong?  On what matter?  I don't use keyboards much, and analog sticks just are much easier to control camera/direction/speed.  We weren't arguing facts, just opinions.  Therefore no one can really be proven "wrong".

It's not off topic.  You suggested a slow climb/drop move, and I suggested a possible way to do it.  The discussion just happened to mention xbox a few times, though it still had the same purpose. 

What else is to discuss now?  We mostly all agree on the same points.  What new features can be added to disks that don't mess with gameplay too much?

yeah, you've been proven wrong. there is no fucking need for more speeds unless a more sophisticated sound system get's integrated. and i don't give a crap if you think that the disk topic has been discussed enough; i think it hasn't because it's a really important topic and the devs didn't post anything about it.

Lol, on what matter was I proven wrong? - was my question.  How do you suggest a slow climb move to be implemented then? 

1 button to go into slow mode, then all animations that follow that go slowly.  That sounds like a good solution.  Hopefully that is possible.

There is no need for a lot of things in this game, they just add choice.  A gradient of speeds just makes it easier to control the spy.  Go try it.  Instead of tapping the W button and inching your way to the desired point (catches a lot of attention due to the constant jerking movement of the spy [not meant to be dirty lol])  Slowly moving at a constant height catches a lot less attention.

a gradient of speeds doesn't make controlling the spy easier once you're beyond the toal noob phase.

Quote from: Rambo on April 13, 2008, 11:52:24 PM
there is no fucking need for more speeds unless a more sophisticated sound system get's integrated.

Precisely. Just drop it already, no point arguing about this any further.

Instead of jerking the spy (lol) to get to a precise spot, you can slowly ease him into a position without drawing so much attention.  But whatever, you guys won't understand until you've actually tried it.  Period.

Quote1 button to go into slow mode, then all animations that follow that go slowly.  That sounds like a good solution.  Hopefully that is possible.

I suggested this, anyone want to comment?

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 14, 2008, 11:48:50 PM
Instead of jerking the spy (lol) to get to a precise spot, you can slowly ease him into a position without drawing so much attention.  But whatever, you guys won't understand until you've actually tried it.  Period.

Quote1 button to go into slow mode, then all animations that follow that go slowly.  That sounds like a good solution.  Hopefully that is possible.

I suggested this, anyone want to comment?

That sounds just like we have it now in CT SvM.

Quote from: BurningDeath on April 14, 2008, 11:56:28 PM

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 14, 2008, 11:48:50 PM
Instead of jerking the spy (lol) to get to a precise spot, you can slowly ease him into a position without drawing so much attention.  But whatever, you guys won't understand until you've actually tried it.  Period.

Quote1 button to go into slow mode, then all animations that follow that go slowly.  That sounds like a good solution.  Hopefully that is possible.

I suggested this, anyone want to comment?

That sounds just like we have it now in CT SvM.

It is.

Wait, what?  You must have misunderstood me.  There is no slow mode button that slows down the animations of climbing.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 15, 2008, 12:01:30 AM
Wait, what?  You must have misunderstood me.  There is no slow mode button that slows down the animations of climbing.

haha .. right, but that's Ubi's failure. There is a slow mode button for everything else.

Well of course  :D  Just make the slow mode button work for climbing too.  Problem solved.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 15, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
Well of course  :D  Just make the slow mode button work for climbing too.  Problem solved.

Umm...thats been discussed. This just turned into a "duh" moment for Papa.

Then why was it brought up in this thread again?  And I don't remember the discussion.  Can't believe I forgot.  I remember something Frvge suggested using the mouse wheel, was that it?

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 15, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
Well of course  :D  Just make the slow mode button work for climbing too.  Problem solved.

o rly?
we had this discussion before and this solution is so obvious that you should stop to hijack this thread with this bs. kkthxbai

Slow climb will help, but honestly I don't think it will completely fix the problem. Stealthing with a disc is still almost impossible going super slow, because the merc knows exactly where you're going. And that pretty much sucks. I'd consider doing something more extreme. Maybe nerfing the disc radar to either a PD or at least the PT radar that didn't show spy elevation. But I think the disc should disable the SS or something as a draw back. Sort of like some CTF style games where you can't shoot anyone when you're carrying the flag. That'd make disc drop off less of an aggro run around thing and more of a stealth game.

The disk thing will be just fine when there is a realistic possibility of actually sneaking out with it. Yes, the mercs do know where spies are headed, but they don't know how, plus they can't effectively cover every entrance. Means they gotta have to patrol, which makes them more vulnerable.

invisible, you don't see 2 points:
-on good maps there is more than one drop zone
-the spy with the disk can also stealth to an objective and drop the disc later (quite awesome tactic btw)

something that just came up in my mind: should camo also make the disc transparent?

Quote from: Rambo on April 15, 2008, 12:48:30 PM
invisible, you don't see 2 points:
-on good maps there is more than one drop zone
-the spy with the disk can also stealth to an objective and drop the disc later (quite awesome tactic btw)

something that just came up in my mind: should camo also make the disc transparent?

Yes, awesome idea. Make camo hide the signal that the disk sends out and you allow a spy who brings it to pass critical points in fast-crouch. Nice one Rambo!

Quote from: Rambo on April 15, 2008, 12:48:30 PM
invisible, you don't see 2 points:
-on good maps there is more than one drop zone
-the spy with the disk can also stealth to an objective and drop the disc later (quite awesome tactic btw)

something that just came up in my mind: should camo also make the disc transparent?

I disagree. The disk is by no way connected to the suit of the spy, therefore it should show itself as it does now. Just because the disk is touching the spy's suit doesn't mean it can go transparent. If a spy has camo on and he touches a wall, the wall doesn't go transparent. Also, its for a balancing purpose. The disk is visible as a giveaway of where you are with it if its not shown on the radar. This has saved me before because I've noticed the glow of the disk moving slowly. So, the disk is visible for the reason of giving away where you are if you really aren't careful. Remember its a stealthy bring back that acts like a burden. The disk should always stay visible.

bd, it was't related to the disk showing up on radar, but to the disk showing up in normal vision just like westfall assumed. when i thought about disk and camo i just noticed that i had no idea (and still don't have) if camo makes the disk transparent.

it doesn't

haha then a disk in large distances looks like flying in a magic trick XD

Quote from: Rambo on April 15, 2008, 09:00:19 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 15, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
Well of course  :D  Just make the slow mode button work for climbing too.  Problem solved.

o rly?
we had this discussion before and this solution is so obvious that you should stop to hijack this thread with this bs. kkthxbai

read my post above yours.

I can't believe I don't remember something so important like that...  :-X

Hijack how exactly?  I'm on topic, stfu.

Quote from: Rambo on April 15, 2008, 12:48:30 PM
invisible, you don't see 2 points:
-on good maps there is more than one drop zone
-the spy with the disk can also stealth to an objective and drop the disc later (quite awesome tactic btw)

I see those points, but honestly, they just dont' really matter.

On maps with multiple drops, the drops are next to each other. Museum, Missile strike and Aqua are the three that come to mind here. So that it's pretty much a game of shocking the merc and running with the disc as opposed to stealthing anything.

As far as stealthing to an objective and dropping the disc later, that can work sometimes but it's rather impractical due to the fact that moving in slow crouch is so damn slow, so you waste a bunch of time. I mean, the disc is nice as a distraction sometimes for that reason. Something like, grab office disk and hit greek if both mercs go to cover the disc drop off. But that's really something your partner is better off doing as opposed to the guy with the disc.

And disc objectives really screw up a lot of maps. I can't think of one that actually improves because of a disc objective other than maybe steel squat, of course that could probably just be a bomb or a console to achieve the same effect. Lets look at the disc objectives in the game.

Aqua: Basically just helps the merc defend fewer places. You can basically ignore the office almost entirely and just defend the drops.

Museum: Camp cafe anyone? The PT objective set up was so much better.

Deftech: Disc objective is just a blind run. No stealth added at all.

Missile Strike: Disc stage is the most annoying thing ever. Pretty much no stealth as it's just two mercs camping the disc drop. Hope you're good with cams, because the chance of you sneaking by the mines and the mercs is basically zero unless the other team sucks.

Orphanage: Again, it's just a grab disc and run scenario. You actually do have to defend the initial disc acquisition points because there are just too many ways out of the orphanage, but it's not really about stealth. It's just about shock and run.

Polar Base: Don't get me started on this one. If the discs were consoles the map would be so much better.

Really, I can't find a good reason to even keep disc objectives in the game. It's possible we could modify them some, but the current incarnations are just pure aggro machines. Over 90% of the time, you drop a disc with a dual rush by you and your partner, your partner shocking and removing mines and you actually dropping the disc. That's just the way things are. It's not a stealth objective at all.

Yeah, there's that 1 in 50 time that someone stealthed a disc, but how often does it really happen? In a real game, how often do you really get away with stealthing a disc on museum or aqua or missile strike?

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I wish that disc objectives would just die.

frankly, all maps with disk objectives suck in some way or another, but it's really not because of the disk objective(s).

orph: wrong door timing, vents/ceiling next to objectives
aqua: tech=central camping spot for mercs
museum: fucked up running-around-in-circles map
missile: ability to defuse bombs by shooting through the metal grill, too small disk room
steel: aggro is op, plays more like a fun map than a real map, getting disk is basically the same route over and over again
polar: it's all about knocking out or killing one merc, and it's also a sniper and camnet map. disk is fun with camo though.
cinema: good disk implementation, but once you have the disk dropped you can't be stopped from winning; without the disk camping in front or back is too easy.

it's not a bad thing that once you have the disk stealth becomes harder as it makes taking the disk a tactical choice and it also enables you to make pretty much pressure on the mercs' defence. a disk obj. just brings more dynamic into the gameplay.

you're also wrong about that going stealth with the disk is inefficient. it may be slow, but consider how much time you use to get a laptop obj in a usual game: 2-4min. once you are at the disk drop-off, you press one button and you get an obj. in no time.

here's an example: museum, you got both bomb objectives, you have the disk and are in the ceiling. at this point it's quite common that one mercs goes to the disk dropoff zone on the outside and the other merc stays in cafe. now let your mate hack cafe inside and stealth to the disk dropoff in cafe or wait for the merc on the outside to go inside. the only problem about this is that the lack of a slow climb move gives away your position once you go down so you better do it fast XD

All objectives give away your position.  Why should the disk one be any different?  It needs a few minor tweaks, but a further boost to camo is not needed imo.

You guys are completely forgetting that stealth and care could be required to get to the disc, but that's ultimately up to the mapmakers so I don't know where your argument about CT maps is going to. Moreover, as agreed upon like million times, stealthy disc extraction will make sneaking out with the disc a sound tactic.

Does not matter because the mercs know a few things:

A) That the disc was taken.
B) Where the disc must be dropped.

Imo, disc objectives should be used a few different ways, and not for stealthy returns.  The other way is using your tracked self as a distraction so your teammate can get to terminals/other objectives and complete them.  The other way is using your teammate and rushing 1 drop point together to drop the disc.  Something that lights up your position an has lights on it is something that cannot/should not be used for stealth.  It's just not how it works.  Should we make it so that's possible?  Maybe, maybe not.  That's something to discuss.  But think about it stealthy players, use stealth to get to all objectives, but once you get to them your position will/should be given away when you use them.  Why should disc be different?  The only stealth boost for any objective should be the bombing objectives - 5 second timer delay is a good one...

Searchlights following the spy ::)

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 17, 2008, 12:33:46 AM
Does not matter because the mercs know a few things:

A) That the disc was taken.
B) Where the disc must be dropped.

Imo, disc objectives should be used a few different ways, and not for stealthy returns.  The other way is using your tracked self as a distraction so your teammate can get to terminals/other objectives and complete them.  The other way is using your teammate and rushing 1 drop point together to drop the disc.  Something that lights up your position an has lights on it is something that cannot/should not be used for stealth.

That's one way to go. Tell me, why should they restrict the ways one can choose to play the game? You're suggesting that whenever a disc is taken, the game pace turns very aggressive and direct. I felt the SvM''s original concept was to be a combination of both agressive and stealthy tactics. The use of both elements is almost a must in CT at the moment, so I really don't understand your need to drop the stealth out from the equation...And furthermore, taking the disc causes always a slight reaction to the mercenaries - as long as the disc pays any tactical relevance. Given the mercs feel the safety of the disc vital for them, they will have to adjust their tactics to counter the defeat. Breaking a pattern such as patrol route always puts the merc at risk, thus giving spies more room to manouver. Plus, two minutes of silence after the disc has been taken can be really stressing, if the disc pays a vital role.

QuoteIt's just not how it works.  Should we make it so that's possible?  Maybe, maybe not.  That's something to discuss.  But think about it stealthy players, use stealth to get to all objectives, but once you get to them your position will/should be given away when you use them.  Why should disc be different?  The only stealth boost for any objective should be the bombing objectives - 5 second timer delay is a good one...

I agree with you here, the concept shouldn't change from what it is now in CT. But I think there should always be a possibility to complete an objective without any direct confrontation.

Well if you agree with me in the second part then to some extent you must agree with me on the first part. 

The reason we should restrict stealthy disc drops (just a bit) is stated in your own post.  It would be really, really, really, stressing for mercs even if there are only a few drops.  You do realize I support slow drops right?  I would like some possibility for stealth, but it should always give away your position like other objectives do.  Even if the slow drop is implemented, a glowing disc on the side of your leg that tells the mercs where you are if you move too fast and that tells the mercs when you pick it up and tells mercs where you are going to go to drop it off really doesn't sound like something that could be easily used with stealthy tactics.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 17, 2008, 01:30:06 AM
Well if you agree with me in the second part then to some extent you must agree with me on the first part. 

The reason we should restrict stealthy disc drops (just a bit) is stated in your own post.  It would be really, really, really, stressing for mercs even if there are only a few drops.  You do realize I support slow drops right?  I would like some possibility for stealth, but it should always give away your position like other objectives do.  Even if the slow drop is implemented, a glowing disc on the side of your leg that tells the mercs where you are if you move too fast and that tells the mercs when you pick it up and tells mercs where you are going to go to drop it off really doesn't sound like something that could be easily used with stealthy tactics.

Rambo provided us with a witty tactic that only the disc can make possible. It's still up there.

I've always felt that stress actually improves my gaming exprience. And unless you weren't exaggerating... uh, seems you're not exactly the type this game plays best for. I've never had the sweet sensation of completely losing my mind over some disc drop, so I don't think it as if it'd be a hinderance and a good riddance for PS. At all! The game should stay exciting. Oh, but of course the mercs know where disc carriers are supposed to go. That doesn't always guarantee that they eventyally come by him, so they should be absolutely unwilling to put their trust into neither of the exremes: Either the carrier is going for the drop off and the mercs just stand there, or then he's most certainly is going for other mischiefs, not causing any kind of deviation in the mercs' defence pattern.

After all I'm unwilling to continue the discussion on whether or not stealth works for extraction, because that is entirely dependant on the map and the current state of other objectives within it, and most importantly, the time limit.

The only thing we need to make disk better is mutliple drop points.  And not like museum where the drop points are beside each other ...

Quote from: Rambo on April 16, 2008, 03:42:22 PM
frankly, all maps with disk objectives suck in some way or another, but it's really not because of the disk objective(s).

Well honestly, I mean is there any map that actually benefits from having a disk that couldn't just be fixed by having a bombing or hacking objective in the same spot as the disk pick-up?

I mean, 95% of the time grabbing a disk turns into total rush-n-shock mode. Going stealthy with the disk is a good way to get yourself killed, or waste a bunch of time. I mean just moving from the pick up area to the drop off area on slowest speed is going to take forever, and that's not even counting the merc who is going to be patrolling for you. Seriously, it sucks doing that. Even with slow climb, it's just too damn slow, and you don't usually have 2-3 minutes devoted to just crossing the map on slow speed, because most of the time that time is just wasted because the merc finds you. You really can't stealth well at all going that slowly.

How about being able to "drop" the disc at any neutralization objective, as well as the drop zone far back at the spy spawn? The disc could be only uploaded from an untouched terminal, and the process would take the same time as it would to hack it normally. After that, the terminal would be closed... Or maybe not closed. Say, untouchable for a minute or two?

way too complicated XD
just leave the disk obj like it is in ct and implement it better into the map design. disk obj. allows both for stealth and aggro tactics and brings great dynamic to the gameplay (combination of stealth and aggro, moving objective, ...), i really can't see any problem directly related to it's properties. just like kurbutti said, you can't play full aggro to get to the disk and play full aggro to get the disk home that easily; this approach requires great teamplay and is not as effective as simply sneaking to the disk and having your mate distract the mercs or remove mines in the meantime.

Quote from: Rambo on April 17, 2008, 12:46:45 PM
way too complicated XD
just leave the disk obj like it is in ct and implement it better into the map design. disk obj. allows both for stealth and aggro tactics and brings great dynamic to the gameplay (combination of stealth and aggro, moving objective, ...), i really can't see any problem directly related to it's properties. just like kurbutti said, you can't play full aggro to get to the disk and play full aggro to get the disk home that easily; this approach requires great teamplay and is not as effective as simply sneaking to the disk and having your mate distract the mercs or remove mines in the meantime.

Yea. There wasn't really anything wrong with the disk objective aside from the maneuvering aspect.

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 17, 2008, 06:02:36 PM

Quote from: Rambo on April 17, 2008, 12:46:45 PM
way too complicated XD
just leave the disk obj like it is in ct and implement it better into the map design. disk obj. allows both for stealth and aggro tactics and brings great dynamic to the gameplay (combination of stealth and aggro, moving objective, ...), i really can't see any problem directly related to it's properties. just like kurbutti said, you can't play full aggro to get to the disk and play full aggro to get the disk home that easily; this approach requires great teamplay and is not as effective as simply sneaking to the disk and having your mate distract the mercs or remove mines in the meantime.

Yea. There wasn't really anything wrong with the disk objective aside from the maneuvering aspect.

i totally disagree, on this idea, the disk is horrible, modes like sabatage where you have to actually go up to a  modem and shoot it  and Extraction with the tube like they had  in pandora were way better then this disk drop off into a briefcase

because you had to take each tube to the extraction point .. perfect map back in the day for it was warehouse .. sure you may get past  those mines and such , but getting it back to your spawn was a job in itself.

Also  if anything make it pieces of a warhead to make it more believable / worth stealing ,

and technically its  Hard drive more then it is a disk ... soo epic fail with the title

but then to some it looks like a huge version of an Ipod for cryingout loud = /.

NEW IDEA -> disk drop offs go in spys spawn, then the mercs can't camp it and its liek extraction from PT :)

actually it's no new idea and it doesn't fit into most map concepts.

Why would you extract a disc somewhere that isn't your own?  :D  It's not a new idea, see deftech belew.  But if the map design is balanced for it and it works, why not?  Doesn't particularly matter where it is as long as it's a balanced point and far away from the other possible drops.

I meant new idea for the thread, since apperently until you state the obvious everyone forgets about certian ideas...

We should try to think less about chaos/pt and more about NEW ideas and NEW concepts that may be added in BETA 2 or how ever the devs might do it.  Because like they said it is a NEW game and we can do anything we want with it, we don't have to be in the splinter cell box.

For example i think there should be more interesting objectives, like a diamond heist in a museum would be cool, the spies could be the bad guys in that scenario.  This is more on the map development, but still  we should come up with more fun new ideas because it can be so much more then chaos(even though i think it is the best multiplayer game ever).  I think the core game play is almost perfect so that i don't think needs to be changed(look at what that did to da) but the other aspects I think could be improved upon.

I'm all for that, except it's unnecessary and more work for the devs.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 18, 2008, 05:49:53 AM
I'm all for that, except it's unnecessary and more work for the devs.

I agree we can't go to crazy right away because it is so difficult to get the core gameplay down pat, before we go do different things.  Thats why I said maybe V2 or Beta 2. 

I can't believe I did not see that.  :-X

Too many new things, or too many different things, is another reason DA failed.  To a good extent it would be best to stick with the same formula but add new kicks and flavors to it.  Not everything should be new or different, because then it's not the same game at all. XD

Here an idea:

What if there was no message when a disk was originally stolen?

You still appear on radar when moving fast, but there was no message telling the mercs to look out for you.

That'd actually add a bit of stealth to it, since the mercs wouldn't necessarily know a spy had the disc. And that would really detract the amount of camping.

Interesting, but maybe a visual change on the drop offs would be good then right?  Like if you walked by a drop off and maybe a light on it is on or something, or the disc tray is open, then you'd know a spy has a disc.  Especially if you have a blip on your radar.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 19, 2008, 07:49:43 PM
Interesting, but maybe a visual change on the drop offs would be good then right?  Like if you walked by a drop off and maybe a light on it is on or something, or the disc tray is open, then you'd know a spy has a disc.  Especially if you have a blip on your radar.

Not the drop off point, buit the pickup point should have some visual indication that a disc has been taken. This forces mercs to patrol the whole map instead of just guarding drop offs and makes full stealth disk drops a lot easier.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 20, 2008, 09:31:54 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 19, 2008, 07:49:43 PM
Interesting, but maybe a visual change on the drop offs would be good then right?  Like if you walked by a drop off and maybe a light on it is on or something, or the disc tray is open, then you'd know a spy has a disc.  Especially if you have a blip on your radar.

Not the drop off point, buit the pickup point should have some visual indication that a disc has been taken. This forces mercs to patrol the whole map instead of just guarding drop offs and makes full stealth disk drops a lot easier.

I say drop off should be lit too. How often do you check drop off points when you know a disk hasn't been stolen?

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 20, 2008, 09:52:29 AM
I say drop off should be lit too. How often do you check drop off points when you know a disk hasn't been stolen?

Well depends on the level, which is one reason that I think we may not want to illuminate drop off points.

Sometimes the drop off is in plain sight, like pirates on aqua or the museum cafe drops, in which case you can just happen to notice it while you're patrolling something else.

Also the main reason mercs don't patrol drop offs now is that they know when the disc was taken, so there was no reason to. Mercs would periodically check drop off points if they weren't aware the disc was taken, especially after a good amount of time passed and things were all quiet.

Since sneaking away on slow speed takes so long anyway, personally I'd say just have the pickup points have signs of intrusion, because that accomplishes the goal of widening the merc's patrol route if he wants to stay informed. 

i think you should have to give away your position when taking the disk, just like every other objective. the ct disk obj is really fine (except the lack of slow-climb), the only other fix it really needs is better implementation in the map layout. after thinking about if for quite a while i come to the conclusion that every drastic change would be bad, the only change not hurting gameplay balance would be allowing the spies to switch the disk.

Quote from: Rambo on April 20, 2008, 10:49:51 AM
i think you should have to give away your position when taking the disk, just like every other objective.

There's a difference though. The other objectives are immediate threats when you accomplish them, where the disk is simply an indicator that says "I'm going to one of the drop off points, and now I'm crippled because you see me on radar if I move fast."

The disk pick-up warning is more akin to a warning that let you know 30 seconds in advance that someone was coming to hack a given terminal.

I mean, you keep saying you can stealth the disk, but I've been playing this game since it came out (both on PC and xbox) and I can count on one hand the number of times someone has successfully stealthed a disk. I mean, the fact is that it's pretty hard to sneak by a good merc in the first place. It's even worse when the merc knows exactly where you're going and you can't move faster than slowest speed at any time or you're instantly on radar.

That's very hard to do. Hell, it'd be hard to get to an objective going purely slowest speed even if the mercs didn't know where I was going.

you seem to forget that once you reach the "objective" = drop zone (to use your metaphora), you press a button and have accomplished it instantly.

Quote from: Rambo on April 20, 2008, 11:58:03 AM
you seem to forget that once you reach the "objective" = drop zone (to use your metaphora), you press a button and have accomplished it instantly.

Not. It takes a part of a second to actually put the disk in the case.
And... how about making the objective a suitcase, that would make the spy slower and less manouverable?

Quote from: Rambo on April 20, 2008, 11:58:03 AM
you seem to forget that once you reach the "objective" = drop zone (to use your metaphora), you press a button and have accomplished it instantly.

yeah .. but how does that matter? You still have to take the disc and bring it to the dropoff zone. I think it'd be much more interesting if the disc obj. did not have a special message saying it was taken. Maybe some kind of a visual sign, like a green light turning red, which can be seen from a longer distance.

Doesn't really make a difference whether the player sees the text or not if there's another way to know if the disc has been taken.

I'm not a fan of this idea either... I'd want PS to stay withing the original concept of the game where interacting with objectives always cause an alarm. The methods required to accomplish the objectives should allow room for both stealth and aggressive playstyles. There's really no need to change the way it works now. Map makers just need to think accurately whether or not they want mercs to be able to guard the drop off points.

What needs an absolute change is when you're dropping the disk. There have been countless times I've placed it in the drop-off (and you actually watch the spy do it) but you get shot and it automatically pops back on to you. I'm sorry, but thats a piece of shit. Same thing with hacking a terminal and seeing 0:00. gtfo

I agree.  It shouldn't take an extra second to hack 0 seconds down.  Or an inch further into the drive when it's all the way in the drop off console.  But that may be a glitch, or for balance.

NO! They did it WRONG!
And the PS team needs to do it RIGHT!
That's about everything there is to say.

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 20, 2008, 06:41:26 PM
What needs an absolute change is when you're dropping the disk. There have been countless times I've placed it in the drop-off (and you actually watch the spy do it) but you get shot and it automatically pops back on to you. I'm sorry, but thats a piece of shit. Same thing with hacking a terminal and seeing 0:00. gtfo

Actually, it is probably meant to be that way... So that you can't just shock a merc guarding the drop-off then rush in and deliver the disk without him being able to do anything about it.

Yeah, I said that it could be for balance purposes.  But the 0 secs on a terminal not being done is stupid and has no point to it.

Quote from: Cyntrox on April 20, 2008, 11:35:22 PM

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 20, 2008, 06:41:26 PM
What needs an absolute change is when you're dropping the disk. There have been countless times I've placed it in the drop-off (and you actually watch the spy do it) but you get shot and it automatically pops back on to you. I'm sorry, but thats a piece of shit. Same thing with hacking a terminal and seeing 0:00. gtfo

Actually, it is probably meant to be that way... So that you can't just shock a merc guarding the drop-off then rush in and deliver the disk without him being able to do anything about it.

No, instead you can shock him right in front of it and drop it off. It needs to be fixed....for realzies

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 21, 2008, 07:36:48 AM

Quote from: Cyntrox on April 20, 2008, 11:35:22 PM

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 20, 2008, 06:41:26 PM
What needs an absolute change is when you're dropping the disk. There have been countless times I've placed it in the drop-off (and you actually watch the spy do it) but you get shot and it automatically pops back on to you. I'm sorry, but thats a piece of shit. Same thing with hacking a terminal and seeing 0:00. gtfo

Actually, it is probably meant to be that way... So that you can't just shock a merc guarding the drop-off then rush in and deliver the disk without him being able to do anything about it.

No, instead you can shock him right in front of it and drop it off. It needs to be fixed....for realzies

about the terminals.. I think all your memories are fuzzed out but , i clearly remember  zed saying that,

there will be other ways of knowing a terminal is gunna be hacked , not just by some numbers..

and as for the disk  ,if the spies had a slow climb then that means any spy could just slow walk every where and not be seen with the disk ...

which is a good thing...

It is a good thing, but even with a slow drop move will stealthing a disc even be effective?  I mean, the mercs know where you are going.  It's not like you can stealth all the way to the drop off.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 22, 2008, 12:00:49 AM
It is a good thing, but even with a slow drop move will stealthing a disc even be effective?  I mean, the mercs know where you are going.  It's not like you can stealth all the way to the drop off.

If the drop offs are in two separate locations, then there should be no reason why you couldn't stealth it.

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 22, 2008, 09:03:54 AM
If the drop offs are in two separate locations, then there should be no reason why you couldn't stealth it.

Well, honestly, even on maps with two drops, you can't really stealth it. If the drops were actually spread out more then maybe but given I don't have any kind of map set up that way, I can't really say much. And I reckon if they were really spread out, you'd probably *still* be better off running to the drop-off, because at most you'd run into a single merc and the two man shock-and-run is just faster and generally more effective. How the disk is currently set up, even if you can slow climb, you pretty much are still better off running. 

disk obj are just like every other objective, both 100% aggro and 100% stealth aren't as effective as a good mix of both. it's not that having the disk on you is nothing but a disadvantage, you can also make a lot of pressure on the mercs by simply having the disk:
if you stealth they don't know if they should guard the other objectives or the drop-off zone, or through which bottle-neck you intend to rush to which drop-off zone. if you play aggro, the mercs are pretty much occupied with spamming nades, mines etc, avoiding to leave the drop-off zones and bottlenecks or get tazed so that your mate has an easy time sneaking past them or getting a kill etc.

implementing the disk drop-off zones better (= having at least 2/disk) and implementing slow-climbing is sufficient. not giving alert when removing the disk is a  very bad idea. being able to switch disks with your mate doesn't hurt/change gameplay, but gives the players a little more options.
being able to drop the disk could be easily balanced if it was running on a battery that lasts like 2min when not connected to the spy suit and once connected slowly recharges.

It wouldn't matter how spread out they are from eachother AS LONG AS they are spread out from other objectives as well.  This way mercs can't camp a drop point and a key objective, see pirate's room.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 21, 2008, 12:39:41 AM
Yeah, I said that it could be for balance purposes.  But the 0 secs on a terminal not being done is stupid and has no point to it.

Yeah, add ms to that as well, like : 0.999 or 0.004. IMO it would look awesomer (LoL).

Quote from: Rambo on April 22, 2008, 01:44:36 PM
being able to drop the disk could be easily balanced if it was running on a battery that lasts like 2min when not connected to the spy suit and once connected slowly recharges.

i discussed this with kubanator and we agreed that this could work:
-battery get acticated once the disk is dropped somewhere (manually by spy or when the spy gets killed)
-battery loaded <50%: disk shows up on merc radar
-battery at 0%: data gone
this way, dropping the disk would also be balanced in spy only zones, woud allow for some new tactics but would be quite balanced (easily adjustable by changing battery timer).

Quote from: Rambo on April 22, 2008, 06:55:11 PM

Quote from: Rambo on April 22, 2008, 01:44:36 PM
being able to drop the disk could be easily balanced if it was running on a battery that lasts like 2min when not connected to the spy suit and once connected slowly recharges.

i discussed this with kubanator and we agreed that this could work:
-battery get acticated once the disk is dropped somewhere (manually by spy or when the spy gets killed)
-battery loaded <50%: disk shows up on merc radar
-battery at 0%: data gone
this way, dropping the disk would also be balanced in spy only zones, woud allow for some new tactics but would be quite balanced (easily adjustable by changing battery timer).

Letting the spies just drop the disc somewhere doesn't sound good to me. After all, they're spies trying to escape with secret data, they wouldn't drop it. Plus the whole battery thing makes things complicated that don't have to be and also doesn't sound too realistic. A disc doesn't have a battery. (I know, fun > realism, but this one is too .. strange for me).

edit: fuck it, I hope you can see what I ment.

it's not meant to be realistic, it's meant to make the disk obj more interesting by allowing advanced strats like hiding the disk somewhere and appearing at an obj quicker than expected without showing up on the radar, but getting back to the disk in time (before the mercs see it on radar or before its running out of energy).

it's the same with being able to switch disks between mates: if you have stealth eq and your mate aggro eq, it makes sense. if you're mate knows better where the mines are, it makes sense. with no mutual healing it would also make sense to give it to the one with more hp left. the drawback is that you gotta meet for this opportunity (and the disk should show up on radar during exchange).

both suggestions sound balanced to me as they don't provide you with any new uba-tactic.

We could change the hard drive to a battery-driven RAM chip :P

Quote from: Cyntrox on April 22, 2008, 10:22:11 PM
We could change the hard drive to a battery-driven RAM chip :P

yeah toally. we could also make it pretty fancy and coherent: a light on the disk glows with full brightness until the battery reaches 10%, then it gets darker till it dies. another small red led begins to blink as soon as the disk appears on radar.

The question is, would the disc appear on the merc's radar when dropped?  If so, dropping it wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, unless you dropped it somewhere mercs could not reach.

Ahh late again!
FYI i've stealth the museum disk b4 by cooping back up to spawn, and dropping in the outside case.
He was crouched about to place a proxy beside the case, i jumped on him from spawn and put the disk in the case ... gg

That's not stealthing it.  It's a mix of stealth and aggro.

papa, how about reading my suggestion before asking dumb questions?

I didn't see anything about that in your suggestions...  I'll look again...

Nope, nothing there about it appearing on the merc's radar.  Nada.  Zip.

That would be incredibly stupid if it did appear, but it could be nice for escaping situations.  For instance, you could drop a disc somewhere if a merc is right on your tail and he'll think that the stationary disc is you just standing still.  But I don't know, just wondering what it would be like.

just for you:

Quote from: Rambo on April 22, 2008, 06:55:11 PM
i discussed this with kubanator and we agreed that this could work:
-battery get acticated once the disk is dropped somewhere (manually by spy or when the spy gets killed)
-battery loaded <50%: disk shows up on merc radar
-battery at 0%: data gone

 :D  Right, I was looking at the lower suggestions where it was talking about dropping discs...

Here's what I said about radar/dropping discs:

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 23, 2008, 04:58:53 PM
That would be incredibly stupid if it did appear, but it could be nice for escaping situations.  For instance, you could drop a disc somewhere if a merc is right on your tail and he'll think that the stationary disc is you just standing still.  But I don't know, just wondering what it would be like.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 24, 2008, 12:57:52 AM
:D  Right, I was looking at the lower suggestions where it was talking about dropping discs...

Here's what I said about radar/dropping discs:

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 23, 2008, 04:58:53 PM
That would be incredibly stupid if it did appear, but it could be nice for escaping situations.  For instance, you could drop a disc somewhere if a merc is right on your tail and he'll think that the stationary disc is you just standing still.  But I don't know, just wondering what it would be like.

With the battery idea, It would drain after a while and then light up on the screen. The spy would easily have been able to drop and move on before the disk lights up...merc then figures out whats going on, and tries to search for you again. Then again, you could stay near by and grab it again and continue towards the drop off ;)

Quote from: Rambo on April 22, 2008, 01:44:36 PM
disk obj are just like every other objective, both 100% aggro and 100% stealth aren't as effective as a good mix of both.

Unfortunately, with disks it's not even close to a good mix. It's 99% aggro and 1% stealth. About the only stealth use of the disk is as a misdirection for your partner, but if you actually want to complete the disk objective, stealthing it is pretty much a non-option.

Quote
it's not that having the disk on you is nothing but a disadvantage, you can also make a lot of pressure on the mercs by simply having the disk:
if you stealth they don't know if they should guard the other objectives or the drop-off zone, or through which bottle-neck you intend to rush to which drop-off zone. if you play aggro, the mercs are pretty much occupied with spamming nades, mines etc, avoiding to leave the drop-off zones and bottlenecks or get tazed so that your mate has an easy time sneaking past them or getting a kill etc.

Honestly, I love it when stealth spies grab a disc. It means they're going to waste a ton of time even if they succeed. Seriously, I mean if I see the orange dot moving rapidly toward the drop off, I know they're going there, otherwise I assume it's a misidrection, so only one merc is patrolling the drop off. And it's seriously pretty easy to guard drop offs against a guy going slowest speed. And even if by some miracle, he sneaks by you... oh well, he just wasted a ton of time going on slowest speed across the entire level for one objective. 

So really if you don't see the orange dot, most of the time I'll give them the disc objective. 

Quote
implementing the disk drop-off zones better (= having at least 2/disk) and implementing slow-climbing is sufficient. not giving alert when removing the disk is a  very bad idea. being able to switch disks with your mate doesn't hurt/change gameplay, but gives the players a little more options.
being able to drop the disk could be easily balanced if it was running on a battery that lasts like 2min when not connected to the spy suit and once connected slowly recharges.

Having a silent pickup is pretty much the only way to get mercs to patrol pickup zones, otherwise they don't even bother. Not to mention it'd make stealthing the disk a lot more reliable and give stealth spies a boost. As a stealth spy, I can certainly say that disk objectives are among the worst things that I can see on a map. They are the complete bane of the stealth spy.

Slow climb would make things only slightly better. Honestly I'm not sure why we should even make slow climb and not just apply it to all climbing. It's not like the spy climbs all that fast anyway. It'd also be nice if you had some kind of grace period before going on radar, so you can do a few sudden fast moves like dropping from a vent or jumping without setting it off. On a side note, I'd like that feature for camo too. So you can drop out of a vent without losing your camo.

The reason why people thinks disc just has to be exctacted every single time is beyond me. Map design is just bad in maps like orphanage where the only reasonable thing to do with the disc is to run like hell. There are some custom maps made for CT that have multiple objective typs within them, and in maps like that it's a sound tactic to get the disc and keep the mercs busy tracking you, while your mate sneaks into hacking position. It makes no difference whether if it's a "misdirection" or not. If you don't respond to the disc carrier you're certainly going to lose it. Actually, you're right; it's a decoy you just can't and don't want to miss. I've done that a lot of times and the merc near the target objective will never have the time to stop both of us from completing the objective.

Disk objectives will be more worth it when the drop offs are placed further apart from each other. Disk was probably one of the best objectives to work on because it fucks up the mercenary. "They waste a ton of time"...not if you know what you're doing. Then it works out perfectly. 

What matters the most is whether mercs can access the drop point themselves. Untouchable drop offs are usually mine free so that favors rapid extraction over anything else.

You guys both make good points, however, you're kind of beating a dead horse.  There isn't much to do to turn the disc into a "Stealth-able" objective.  It's like turning black into white.  There are a few things that can be done to help a bit of stealth be possible for disc, but in reality it will always be making a hightail for the dropoff and hoping the merc bites the bait so your partner can hack. :-\

I would like it though if you could stealth a bit easier to a certain point, then once you are in a good position to make a dash for the drop off you go for it.  Slow climb is one of those things, as is dropping the disc - dropping it to scout the area ahead then grabbing it and going would be a good thing imo.  But the main factor is map design and the ways that are possible to get to a dropoff.  2 dropoffs close to eachother (aqua) is bad map design.  Forcing mercs to leave their positions to guard them sounds like a good solution.

it's not a bad thing that completing the disk objective forces you to use some aggro. yet with better map design and a slow-climb move i think the stealth aspect becomes way stronger. making the merc cover the disk spawn or drop off to see if the disk was removed is totally redundant (when the disk becomes actually a valid objective because the drop offs aren't that bad like in cafe) due to the fact that the merc is already punished when the spy takes the disk the stealth way: he isn't close enough to the spy to stop her from taking the disk and the spy can go unnoticed in any direction.

Quote from: Rambo on April 25, 2008, 01:24:46 PM
he isn't close enough to the spy to stop her from taking the disk

wtf - female spies? :D

hell yeah XD
some1 invented that to make it easier to distuinguish between them when using his/her

What's weird about female Spies? How would they reproduce otherwise? Spies don't grow on trees.

Quote from: Westfall-US on April 25, 2008, 01:22:02 AM
Disk objectives will be more worth it when the drop offs are placed further apart from each other. Disk was probably one of the best objectives to work on because it fucks up the mercenary. "They waste a ton of time"...not if you know what you're doing. Then it works out perfectly. 

screw the Disk ,  Green oooze tubes ftw :D .

i volunteered as an enironment modeler and have no idea about anythign the mod is modeled after  , but since i play objective based tactical games i say yes to 2 things :

drop your item whever you want  - if left unable to drop the objective item , people will become extremely irate and end up leaving the mod entirely or if they feelin' saucy they will start to die just to drop it for a mate ... will piss the users off to no end if they cant hide it : will actually be pretty inventive and unique that a game has this feature i think.

slow climb : after all you are building a stealth game and spies obviously have stealth associated with their behvior . if you feel it unbalances things , maybe make the mercs have a mouswheel movement speed too , unless the mousewheel is used for somethign else .

things mousewheel could be used for , coming from a self-proclaimed tactica FPS expert :

- movement speed
- weapon /gadget selection
- ROF
- mission status indications (kind of fake , but since theyre hig-tech status display would be feasable)
- othet things i wil brainstorm about

question , can you give mercs pistols ? would be a hell of alot more precise in cqb situations , and promote expert marksmanship . i might think of some more stuff and i knwo you wont accept 99% of it but the fuun is in thinking of it , now that i fully understand you guys : ]

That speech left me quite wordless.

i managed to cath a screenshot of the spy in his natural habitat :

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F70.87.237.2%2F%7Ereason%2Fwillis.jpg&hash=52aa43d76af57f87a847d65736ebea37a90e157b)

^ looks like a moron ...

Stop with the insulting guys...

Quote from: Rambo on April 25, 2008, 01:24:46 PM
it's not a bad thing that completing the disk objective forces you to use some aggro. yet with better map design and a slow-climb move i think the stealth aspect becomes way stronger. making the merc cover the disk spawn or drop off to see if the disk was removed is totally redundant (when the disk becomes actually a valid objective because the drop offs aren't that bad like in cafe) due to the fact that the merc is already punished when the spy takes the disk the stealth way: he isn't close enough to the spy to stop her from taking the disk and the spy can go unnoticed in any direction.

Yeah, that's basically what I thought, and said lol...

I agree with the Pistol idea, but this can be done by simply adding an "updgrade" to the main weapon of the game giving it a specific Gameplay like: shotgun, rifle, uzi, pistol.

If we compared thsi to CT... the CT Rifle isn't accurate at all and shot on the right side of the reticle instead of shooting in the center.

I should add... slow-climbing wouldn't be a good idea if you follow the logic that climbing like spies do in CT is totally insanely outstanding. They must be really physically strong to do that, plus... climbing like this requires control and can't be done too fast. So... it doesn't make that much noise.

Gameplay > Realism, Hyrage.  I don't care if it's unplausible if anyone could slowly climb like that, it helps balance and improves gameplay, so that takes priority here.

i concur : if you were a highly trained government operative , dont you think you would take the time to learn to be stealth on ladders , in a addition to your insane knowledge of avoiding passive defense like lasers and security cam's ? or would you accept defeat as a lazy option you can deal with ?

Xris never seen a fed huh , you afraid of xfiles as a kid son ? its ok an alien wont consume your innerds and posses your body , dont worry .

[EDIT] roflmao ,i didnt thnk of it before , would you say that to a dude holding the gun in my sig ?i think NOT!

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F70.87.237.2%2F%7Ereason%2Fdimdimgear2hw4.jpg&hash=2b63e4cc21deddf19453d5a643254e1cb32bc221)

dudududududu doooo   , whoo whoo whoo whooo who whoo /xfiles theme

Sorry not sure what you mean by fed ... ::)
But if you want to see real soldiers click here (http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&q=canadian+soldier&btnG=Search+Images) :P

fed is american for ... stfu fool im a ninja and will interpol you if you fuck with me enough loll.

[EDIT]ROFL canada , im jk canada is cool but were just different , soldiers get tortured when neccessary , feds got tortued for frun and capitalism ,aand ppl theft protection , aamong other things , yeah we grt torturd alot hehe . *cough langley*cough*

im actually in an america's army clan , strangely enough calle d2ndranger battalio and run by candians , but it coool , theyre good ppl.

and BTW your avatar is ugly lmfao not jk , this mod looks so much better than that avatar ... pick a new one plz .

Good to see you've changed, dim.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 25, 2008, 06:39:16 PM
Gameplay > Realism, Hyrage.  I don't care if it's unplausible if anyone could slowly climb like that, it helps balance and improves gameplay, so that takes priority here.

My point was, climbing doesn't have to deal between slow or fast. It's already used at a medium speed because it makes the difference between the merc and the spy. The spy must travel fast enough on the Y axis to difference himself more than running faster VS the MERC.

Plus, it's a game and we aren't searching realism, but we are searching for a logical sense anyway. It would be pointless to add slow climbing and fast climbing. You can slow down on a zip line not to avoid noise but because it goes really fast. Climbing is already hard to achieve physically and I'm not sure that you will make a lot of noise while doing that, it's not running or landing... it's just climbing. The effort it takes to climb, you aren't making noises, it's all about placing your feeth and your hands at the right places and support your weight.

hyrage, the ability of slow-climbing is only needed against mt and when carrying the disk, not because of noises and other stuff.

Quote from: Rambo on April 25, 2008, 11:02:08 PM
hyrage, the ability of slow-climbing is only needed against mt and when carrying the disk, not because of noises and other stuff.

Yeah this would totally makes sense for MT, unfortunately there is no sensitivity on the keyboard arrows  8) compared to a 360 Controller thumbsticks to accurately play with the movement speed.

But it makes sense that passing over a fence is detected by the MT.

just go into slow-mode by pressing the middle mouse button.

Quote from: Rambo on April 25, 2008, 01:24:46 PM
it's not a bad thing that completing the disk objective forces you to use some aggro. yet with better map design and a slow-climb move i think the stealth aspect becomes way stronger. making the merc cover the disk spawn or drop off to see if the disk was removed is totally redundant (when the disk becomes actually a valid objective because the drop offs aren't that bad like in cafe) due to the fact that the merc is already punished when the spy takes the disk the stealth way: he isn't close enough to the spy to stop her from taking the disk and the spy can go unnoticed in any direction.

The thing is that mercs generally don't care if you pick up the disk. I mean getting to the disk pick-up usually takes minimal stealth because mercs don't bother patrolling them anyway in most maps unless the disk is the only objective, like orphanage or missile strike. The only way to really get them to patrol the pick ups is if the disk can be taken covertly. Otherwise, picking up a disk is just equivalent to giving away your position without actually accomplishing any objectives.

As far as stealthy disk tactics... I mean honestly, point to one map where the disk is done right and you can actually stealth it with any regularity against competent mercs. Thus far, I have yet to actually see a single map where this is true. Disks are pretty much pure aggro. There may be limited stealth in getting to the disk objective on some maps where the disk is the only objective, like orphanage. But once you got the disk, it's just a mad dash and to hell with stealth. Seriously, I don't care how you design the maps, it's always going to be that way.

If you make it so that you don't immediately know a disk was taken, then you make the stealth aspect a lot more possible and I think disk objectives become a bit more fun. Obviously it'd require a bit of map rebalancing, but since PS is all new maps, that's not a problem.

Another idea I thought of is that you should be able to do a radar reveal on the disk when standing at the disk pickup point, so that both mercs can see it. So if go to patrol the pick up point, you could send out a radar ping that always shows where the disk is (even if the spy is standing still). But because this requires that you stand at the pick up point, it means that one merc is out of commission.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 26, 2008, 12:05:12 AM
Another idea I thought of is that you should be able to do a radar reveal on the disk when standing at the disk pickup point, so that both mercs can see it. So if go to patrol the pick up point, you could send out a radar ping that always shows where the disk is (even if the spy is standing still). But because this requires that you stand at the pick up point, it means that one merc is out of commission.

this could cripple a stealth approach to the disk even more and wouldn't be used much in a way it would improve the gameplay. BUT you inspired me for one quite awesome idea:
-when the disk is taken, the merc only get a "security breach" message
-as long as the disk is in the server it appears on the merc's radar

Interesting, needs some discussion though...

Quote from: Rambo on April 26, 2008, 12:39:57 AM

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 26, 2008, 12:05:12 AM
Another idea I thought of is that you should be able to do a radar reveal on the disk when standing at the disk pickup point, so that both mercs can see it. So if go to patrol the pick up point, you could send out a radar ping that always shows where the disk is (even if the spy is standing still). But because this requires that you stand at the pick up point, it means that one merc is out of commission.

this could cripple a stealth approach to the disk even more and wouldn't be used much in a way it would improve the gameplay. BUT you inspired me for one quite awesome idea:
-when the disk is taken, the merc only get a "security breach" message
-as long as the disk is in the server it appears on the merc's radar

The security failure message could be a pretty good compromise as opposed to no message at all, but it still forces the merc to do some guessing to figure out what happened. Like "Did he grab the disc or did he just shoot out a laser or motion sensor."

The blip in the server will take some time to get used to, and I'm not sure if it's a good idea to clutter up the radar with it. I'm thinking it might be easier just to display the "Disk has been stolen" message to all mercs when a merc gets within a certain distance of the disk pick-up. It'd achieve about the same result without cluttering up the radar screen.

that's right.

I like Invisible's idea.  Instead there should be lights around the pickup point that flash red when a disc has been stolen.  That way they get a visual cue and they would have to investigate to see it.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 26, 2008, 08:42:28 PM
I like Invisible's idea.  Instead there should be lights around the pickup point that flash red when a disc has been stolen.  That way they get a visual cue and they would have to investigate to see it.

It's not christmas yet papa :P. I like Rambo's idea about the security failure, but i see what papa and invisible mean. I kinda like the idea of guessing though. How about when the disk is TAKEN the outside of the radar (usually orange in ct) flashes red, and a little thumping noise like the one when u stop a spy hacking in ct . It would mean no clutter on the R-DIZZLE!

Well it should still give the security message like Rambo's idea, but there should also be a visual cue around the pickup point - Flashing lights that are only noticeable maybe from 20 feet away from it.  It's a mix of Invisible's and Rambo's ideas.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 26, 2008, 10:07:35 PM
Well it should still give the security message like Rambo's idea, but there should also be a visual cue around the pickup point - Flashing lights that are only noticeable maybe from 20 feet away from it.  It's a mix of Invisible's and Rambo's ideas.

The problem with lights is that it puts a lot of work in the hands of the map designer. I'd prefer to make it a game feature. That way if we find out it sucks, we can just change it. The nice thing about having a fixed distance for detection is that people can tell how far they are from the objective by the enhanced reality box, and thus can tell if they're close enough, it's also something we can fine tune. So we can try 10 meters, or 5 or 15 or whatever depending on how playtesting goes, and it just involves changing a number.

If it's built into the map, then it's not going to be easy to change. I suppose we could have the disk server give off a pulsating glow or something and that'd be doable. But I'm not sure if it's needed right now. Besides I sort of like the idea of getting to a certain point and both mercs getting a message that tells them the disk has been stolen.

It would take no map designer's time because the maps are always visible.  BUT, they are only visible from 20 or so feet away.  Meaning you have to be within 20 foot radius of the light to actually see it.  So that wouldn't put and problems for map designers because they don't have to block the view of it for every angle or anything like that.

i still think that we'd rather optimize the map design than making the disk objective less coherent with the other objectives. it's really not that bad that the disk objective promotes rather aggro then stealth, afterall it's stealth-ACTION-multiplayer.

Yeah, well, why not both?

Quote from: Rambo on April 27, 2008, 12:25:21 PM
i still think that we'd rather optimize the map design than making the disk objective less coherent with the other objectives. it's really not that bad that the disk objective promotes rather aggro then stealth, afterall it's stealth-ACTION-multiplayer.

Well if people want disk objectives to be pretty much aggro, then that's one thing and an entirely different point.

I just hate when people claim that you can stealth a disk with any regularity, because seriously... you can't unless the mercs are horrible or you get very lucky.

As far as whether an aggro objective is good for the game, that's a matter of opinion. Personally I think it's not. There aren't any objectives that have to be accomplished full stealth, so requiring an objective to be required with aggro just seems off to me. If there's any problem with CT now, I feel like there are far too many situations that require aggro. It's not that I want to completely phase aggro out of the game, it's just that I hate it when there are certain times when aggro is your only option.  This especially happens in maps when the objectives are too close together and disks kind of just encourage that IMO, because there's no need to patrol the disk pickup zone.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 28, 2008, 02:33:43 AM
I just hate when people claim that you can stealth a disk with any regularity, because seriously... you can't unless the mercs are horrible or you get very lucky.

I can stealth a disk back on good players. Its not too crazy of an idea, especially if you get a distraction going. You may not be able to stealth it back, but there are some of us who try AND succeed at doing so.

Quote from: Westfall on April 28, 2008, 03:35:15 AM
I can stealth a disk back on good players. Its not too crazy of an idea, especially if you get a distraction going. You may not be able to stealth it back, but there are some of us who try AND succeed at doing so.

I keep hearing this, but I've never had anyone stealth a disk on me.

And really if you've got a distraction, then you're better off just making a run for it anyway while the mercs are distracted instead of stealthily trying to get it there.

Stealthing a disk succeeds like 1 time in 10 at best. It's why 99% of people don't even bother using stealth and just make a blind run.

This is true.  I've tried to stealth a disc a lot of times.  BUT, to my dismay, it wasted time everytime I did it and it failed 4/5 times I tried it.  However, whenever I've got a distraction going (or a bomb planted), I succeed at rushing it 4/5 times.  It's just much more effective and wastes no time doing it.

I admit its easier to just run the bad boy in there. I prefer stealth. The only reason its harder is because the 2 drop off points are too close to each other. Zed's map Sanctuary had the right idea with the disks. Balancing it out with sector type of objectives, but you could go after any 1 at any given time.

stealthing the disk isn't a very valid option because of the bad placement of the disk dropoff zones and the lack of a slow climb move. how about fixing these problems first before considering any more changes?

Quote from: Rambo on April 28, 2008, 01:30:13 PM
stealthing the disk isn't a very valid option because of the bad placement of the disk dropoff zones and the lack of a slow climb move. how about fixing these problems first before considering any more changes?

Part of it is bad dropoff placement, though the other part lies in the actual nature of the disk objective itself. Disk objectives tend to make maps smaller. This is because they're an objective that doesn't exist all the time, and the merc doesn't have to patrol the disk pick-up. So the real objective, the drop-off, only exists at certain periods of time and the spies have constraints on their speed to get there.

The only real advantage of a disk drop-off is that you can complete the objective fast when you get there.

And this whole setup just reeks of a pure aggro style system where you're expected to shock the merc and run to the drop-off. I mean, really, where's the incentive to go stealthy?

Now, you can play around with locations of drop-offs and pickups on maps, but I don't feel it'll make much of a difference. Disk missions are still going to be done best with a run-around or aggro style, and they'll still have the problem of making your level smaller. Orphanage is probably the only level I know that uses the disk well. It's still a run after you get it, but the challenge is more getting to the disk as opposed to getting away. That'd be a decent pattern to model, but I'm not sure how best to set that up.

And the answer to that I think lies in making that disk pick-up objective a bit more of a no brainer. If you don't know necessarily when a spy has a disk or not, then you may have to patrol the drop-off sometimes, just to make sure. It also rewards stealth because if they don't know you've got the disk. It becomes much tougher.

Alternately, we could just use the orphanage design model where disks are painfully easy to deliver, so you're forced to actually patrol pick-ups because you simply cannot stop a drop-off very well at all.