In my opinion an idea of Death Match in SvM wasn't that bad . It is true that good players rarely played deathmatch or even didn't play it at all but it is attractive to newcomers . It is also fun even for skilled players from time to time. Ofcourse less skilled players overabused it in SvM , but it also attracted players to the game . As time passed a lot of them moved to story mode and some stayed in Death Match .
Project Stealth should take in account that this is a mod for Unreal Tournament 3 . What is Unreal really about ? Is it about sneaking ? And snaping necks ? No ! Its about you pounding your way througth people with Rifles , Machine guns , Bio guns , Chain guns , Redemers and whatever else you can find . Will Project Stealth be fun for them to play ? I guess , NOT ! But a DeathMatch mode can be used as a bridge between Unreal and Ps . Ofcourse it dosen't have the TRUE essence of SvM , but more people means more fun . Its not very interesting to play with same opponents 10000000 times over and over again .
As for mode itself it can be a bit different . In my opinion the DeathMatch mode in SvM really sucked donkey balls . It was way too long and way to eazy to play . It was dumbed down to mercs having no gadjets and spies having no gadjets which striped all the tactics away . It always came down to stupid 1 jump or 2x spy flash charge or merc camping in the corner or anywhere else he couldnt be grabed or killed .
Now in my opinion this mode should be a bit different so all players can enjoy this mode . Even good players who detest this mode very much . Rememmber the good old times of Pt deathmatches which were actually good from time to time .
Deathmatch is made for aggro. So ill write what , in my opinion , it should be like.
1 : Let Double Jump have an astounding return in DeathMatch .
2 : Allow all Gadjets for Spies and Mercs which will allow more tactics to both sides .
3 : Make mercs weapons more deadly but remove the HuD . ( Like any Call of Duty Hardcore servers )
4 : Devide the Existing maps in Sectors like , For example , Warehouse has 3 sectors . And force mercs to go from Sector to Sector . Something like if you stay in Sector 1 or Sector 2 you will die but if you go to Sector 3 it will be okay . But make all the sectors exesable for spies all the time .
5 : Balance the Life / Time ratio . In SvM it was retarded .
6 : Add some cool aggro tricks .... Like for example spies punch hurts the mercs for half hp and 2 punches kill..... or 3 . So that stupid charge wouldnt be that useless ...
So what do you think about this ? Will it help PS get more popular ? Will it help bring some Unreal players to PS ?
Imho . I think that this is a really good idea to get new people to play ps . A balanced DeathMatch mode can make this game even more popular than CT althougth marketing probably plays a significant role in this too.
Note : Please don't say something ' We don't need those damn 11 or 12 year old in Ps ' . Any player is just a player and if he can make this game more competitive and a great sucess i don't mind.
Last but not least . A question to the devs . Will it be possible to implement something like this ? Or are you guys already decided for it to be more of a Hardcore Player MoD ? If there gonna be only 20 people playing it , it will suck ......
we all r just a players, right? XD
as long as the dm mode doesn't take too much ressources (dev time, server capacity etc) from story mode i'm fine with it. but i guess even without it it would be no problem to get more then 100 players online in the evening if only half of the pt/ct vets return and bring in some of their friends (mine got driven away by the lags, bad mouse implementation and stupid community).
Come to think about it . Death Match is a good solution for people to get feeling for this game . There are not many games like this and a lot of people when they come to this game don't even know what to do . I was the same when i started to play Pt .
People , who played Cs , cod , WoW etc would be confused at start . But deathmatch can prove to be a enjoyable way to learn about this game a bit .
Oh and not only a matter of vets returning and bringing people back . It would be great to get new people in . The community should grow in my opinion , its not that large ..... compared to other games.
Oh and i think that 100 people thing is totally wrong . How many vets and their friends are there ?
If you want to have atleast 100 people on all the time , atleast 1000 players should be playing this game.
Agreed, but PS dm needs a bunch of differences especially for balance. A tweak here, a tweak there. What was Tidenburg's suggestion for DM again? I totally forgot, but I remember it sounded pretty fun.
I'm pretty sure some kind of DM will eventually be in. I do not know in which way, or when. It could be as an expansion or whatever. The normal objectives-mode has priority.
It would be easy. Just take off objectives, or turn em off, then add a customizable life limit.
For pt 3:
Will there be a ping along with the reticule?
Quote from: frvge on July 12, 2008, 08:13:40 PM
I'm pretty sure some kind of DM will eventually be in. I do not know in which way, or when. It could be as an expansion or whatever. The normal objectives-mode has priority.
I'm imagining that most people would not be likely to come back to a certain mod invigorated by solely by a gamemode they enjoy in 90% of online FPS's out there at this moment, unless of course, it has some sort gimmich(s) that they find appealing to them. I may not need to remind any of you about how important the first impression, the whole image of the title can be. Although, I respect any decision made, but Snakebit really does have a point.
Quote from: Kurbutti on July 13, 2008, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: frvge on July 12, 2008, 08:13:40 PM
I'm pretty sure some kind of DM will eventually be in. I do not know in which way, or when. It could be as an expansion or whatever. The normal objectives-mode has priority.
I'm imagining that most people would not be likely to come back to a certain mod invigorated by solely by a gamemode they enjoy in 90% of online FPS's out there at this moment, unless of course, it has some sort gimmich(s) that they find appealing to them. I may not need to remind any of you about how important the first impression, the whole image of the title can be. Although, I respect any decision made, but Snakebit really does have a point.
k ill kinda agree on snakebits point . i too started out with dm but i don't think that should be the focus
because everyone will end up having a one tracked mind of just playing Deathmatch.. and it will cripple
the people who really wanna get story games in.. With a good Tutorial which is already in the works
some where i read in a thread , would suffice to help and plus Ill help people too but if a good tutorial
session is made then I wouldn't have to spend time wasting my vocal cords on such things =/.
Tutorial are usually boring and they don't teach anything . If you add all of the PS specifics like the emf specifics , sound reticle , jumps , etcc.... It will get way too long and way too boring . It will scare probably half the people away by just its length .
In my opinion deathmatch is the only enjoyable way of learning how to play this game without needing to read several hours of text or listen to a hour long tutorial .....
As stated above it would be great if it was included since the begining , since a lot of people won't come back to check the updates .... First impressions are very important .
Make it an interactive tutorial. And in the parts where it's not interactive, make it a video. Try making it have the least amount of reading possible. That should help with the boringness.
I don't think there should be too many changes, after all you say this could be a way of bringing people in and your dead right, just if the core mechanics change too much, they are going to be ill-prepared for a Story mode experience.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 13, 2008, 01:42:06 PM
I don't think there should be too many changes, after all you say this could be a way of bringing people in and your dead right, just if the core mechanics change too much, they are going to be ill-prepared for a Story mode experience.
Your wrong a bit stone . I said that Deathmatch could provide a good learning course for new players and make it enhoyable . The only was to do so , in my opinion , is to make the game mechanics a bit more like normal fps but SvM'ish .
Deathmatch should be a game where BOTH teams can take the initiative to wipe out the other team . Mercs can hunt for spies but spies should also be able to wipe out mercs while they even camp with their back to wall .
It would be nice if the spy punch would do damage in Deathmatch . Then mercs cant camp in corners and will be forced to move around + the suggestion of dividing maps into sectors will also make them more mobile and fast paced .
i think a good game trailer and a good tutorial are sufficient to get new gamers in. just because most tutorials are crap doesn't mean we can't do better in that regard. for instance, did you guys play mgs? the training maps were awesome.
if dm should help as a bridge to story mode for newcomers, it should come as close as possible to story mode game mechanics, meaning all gadgets, visions etc fully available.
like said before, we gotta implement a mechanic that either makes the mercs move or allows pwning camping mercs. some good ideas so far are:
-force mercs to move from sector to sector
-tomoe nage
-damage for push
How about you get killed if you stand in the same area for 15 seconds? ;p
Quote from: Papa Skull on July 12, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
It would be easy. Just take off objectives, or turn em off, then add a customizable life limit.
I love how everything is always so easy.
Quote from: Snakebit. on July 13, 2008, 10:58:20 AM
Tutorial are usually boring and they don't teach anything . If you add all of the PS specifics like the emf specifics , sound reticle , jumps , etcc.... It will get way too long and way too boring . It will scare probably half the people away by just its length .
In my opinion deathmatch is the only enjoyable way of learning how to play this game without needing to read several hours of text or listen to a hour long tutorial .....
As stated above it would be great if it was included since the begining , since a lot of people won't come back to check the updates .... First impressions are very important .
Your totally wrong in this sense , i know they will make a good tutorial mode . Unlike most of you.
I know the background of most of the dev team... and one of which would be the writer for Project stealth.
Slowhand AkA Bhager.P. Former Clan Pt buddy , On the dev team who's a writer senior creative executive at a movie studio (Universal) and as a producer (at Dreamworks and Disney , without a shout of a doubt i don't think with that much backbone behind this team that the tutorials will be boring..
Obviously this is a multiplayer game, so why do all the tutorials have to be single player? There could be one spy only multiplayer map to show the spies all their moves, gadgets and how security works and everything else, and one for mercs with the same purpose. After that there could be a few more multiplayer tutorial levels, except this time for 2 spies AND 2 mercs. In these maps the spies and mercs must each work together to stop the other team from succeeding in their objective.
Imagine you load up and each team is spawned in a room, and a video appears in the middle of the screen a bit like on the beginning of the match on Double Agent, except the game is paused and you have to watch through the whole thing (unless you are playing through the map and it's not your first time, you would then have the option to skip) which would describe the objective of the map, give tips on the kind of things you can use to complete the objective, then the video switches off. Countdown - 3, 2, 1, GO! Imagine this - you must use co-ops moves to progress up a large building to it's roof (Leg-ups, throwing across gaps, rappelling) and the mercs have to try and stop you before you complete the objective (Camnet while other scouts using lifts for example). Each team has to win that stage twice before they can move on, and each round players swap teams.
Next round, same again except this time you are placed in a large map with many vents, and the spies must sneak through them to the other side of the map, the mercs must stop them doing this, but how? Remember the remote mine from DA? Imagine each merc has to use these while communicating with each other to make their way through the vents to find the spies. They have a limit of 1 each, so if they mis-fire they are out and have to travel on foot to each exit searching for the spies, the spies must communicate with each other to avoid the remote mines and make it to the finish. There could be a few more rounds after this, but I have to go soon so I can't describe my ideas right now.
Throughout tutorials maps, the ghosting Double Agent took advantage of should be used. This would help the spies and mercs find useful ways of using the environment to their advantage, so they have a better chance of surviving in the real game. The purpose of these tutorial map would be basically to build on communication skills and team play - SvM is all about team play and without working together you will fail, and these maps would make sure you have the skills to play together. :D
Quote from: Gui Brazil on July 13, 2008, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on July 12, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
It would be easy. Just take off objectives, or turn em off, then add a customizable life limit.
I love how everything is always so easy.
Maybe I exaggerated but I was just saying that it wouldn't take as much work as story would take to throw in.
Good idea, anyone who hadn't played PT online, and was new to CT, always started as a DM player, purely for the fact that is a gamemode that all online gamers are fimiliar with. DM is a must IMO, it will get som many more players, and eventually slowly but surely they'll turn to story.
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 13, 2008, 11:22:35 PM
Good idea, anyone who hadn't played PT online, and was new to CT, always started as a DM player, purely for the fact that is a gamemode that all online gamers are fimiliar with. DM is a must IMO, it will get som many more players, and eventually slowly but surely they'll turn to story.
Not really , look in chaos theory now there are more DM players then Story and some don't wanna make the transistion.. .=/.
in fact, most don't wanna make the transition cause they're plain stupid.
regarding the tutorial: it may be a good idea to do the 2nd half of the tutorial on the beta map so that it doesn't only show mechanics, but also makes the newcomers comfortable with a story mode map.
Maybe make it so that they can only play DM for 10 days after downloading :)
Quote from: AgentX_003 on July 13, 2008, 11:27:17 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 13, 2008, 11:22:35 PM
Good idea, anyone who hadn't played PT online, and was new to CT, always started as a DM player, purely for the fact that is a gamemode that all online gamers are fimiliar with. DM is a must IMO, it will get som many more players, and eventually slowly but surely they'll turn to story.
Not really , look in chaos theory now there are more DM players then Story and some don't wanna make the transistion.. .=/.
Yea, but if i did a poll on here from people who started of palying dm regularly, who are now playing story regularly, you'll see what i mean. obviously not all make the transition, but alot do.
I made the transition.
Quote from: Papa Skull on July 13, 2008, 11:46:34 PM
Maybe make it so that they can only play DM for 10 days after downloading :)
:D :o ;D
i'm not totally against dm, but it would need many changes. and as a dev i'd set the priority:
story mode > tutorial > dm mode
I'll explain a bit why i think that Tutorial is a worse way of learning than Deathmatch in my opinion .
Let's imagine a new player just came to PS and he is playing the tutorial. If the tutorial gonna be small with no complex things than he is obviously not gonna learn anything and its gonna be useless . If the tutorial gonna be long with complex SvM things he just won't understand half of it and won't rememmber even 3/4 during the game . It's something like when you read some Book or a Manuall to some object , you might not understand everything without having some knowledge on the subject and you won't certainly rememmber 100 % of what was in it ...... 50% at max ....
Then what people do in that case . They need to read the book again or memorize the required stuff from it , but will anyone do that with a tutorial to a game ? Hell , no . They will just go play the game . Now they end up in the story mode and think ' What do i do ? ' , 'What the hell is a story game ?' 'Oh , okay let me just try to rush the guy from the front like in any other game ' , ' Hell , it didn't work ! This game sucks balls .... Its way to complicated .... ' and the player just gonna leave .
Now if he joins a DeathMatch server he would actually have a chance to know the game better . He runs to mercs , punches them couple of times and they die . He thinks ' Oh nice , i always wanted to be sneaky and kill them like Jason Bourne or James Bond ' , ' Oh , there are also a lot of cool gadjets i can use ' bla bla bla he learns about this game little by little . May be in time he will understand that story is better , may be not . Well some will atleast . The rest can just enjoy the Deathmatch mode ....
Lol it's like an AA meeting.
Me: *rises from chair and walks to the podium*
Me: "Hello, my name is Papa Skull."
Crowd: "Hello there papa, hey paps, whatsup skull..."
Me: "I can admit that I used to play DM, sometimes obsessively. I was addicted."
Crowd: "Been there done that..."
Me: "I'm proud to say that I've been DM free for over a week now."
Crowd: *applauds*
Me: "I've moved on and am doing better with my life now. I've moved on to story mode and I've called my kids, whom I've lost touch with over the course of my addiction."
Crowd: *applauds and cheers*
Me: "Thankyou"
Me: *moves from podium and sits back in seat smiling while the crowd applaudes*
:)
I think you have a point Snake, but the fatal flaw is how does something with no direction teach players to play the game better than something in a similar situation, with direction. I mean you say that 'If the tutorial gonna be long with complex SvM things he just won't understand half of it and won't rememmber even 3/4 during the game' and that's why you think a tutorial is wrong. So what I gather from this is that your general idea is for people to only get a limited knowledge of the game from the mode trying to teach them to play it. If I play a game I want to know how to play, not be told half of what I can do and never use the rest.
A manual isn't really interactive whereas a fun thing like using co-op moves to reach the roof of a building and escape it is - so it's not really something you skip unlike a manual, and with help along the way I think it would be a lot better than being dropped into Deathmatch not having a clue what I'm doing, and being told 'Go'. One way or another you have to be TOLD how to play the game, and what better than an interactive tutorial from the developers of the game? I'd rather have that than people playing the game who are in the same 'DM Tutorial Mode' as me trying to teach me the core mechanics.
both a tutorial and dm mode are useful for newcomers for sure. but you don't learn shit about story mode in dm...
If you are good at deathmatch then you can be good at some facets of story mode. For example, killing mercs or spies for your partner.
I didn't say , the dev's shouldn't make any tutorial . In my opinion a simple tutorial explain core mechanics of the game should be included but the specifics should be learned in deathmatch mode , where newcomers can have a chance of having fun . If they try to play story from the start , they just gonna be butchered and gonna leave the game.
they can have some superficial fun, but they don't really learn story mode. if you don't believe me, just grab a dm kiddie and hf trying to play story with him.
there are and will be tons of noob servers in which newcomers won't be butchered, and maybe the vets could try to help the newcomers more by creating a training server once in a while (for that purpose it should be possible to activate voip to work between all players).
i think the biggest problem for newcomers is to grab the concept of objective-based gameplay (yes, it's about getting objectives and not about killing the mercs) and when to stay hidden and when to play aggressive. we should just implement some little video clips explaining this stuff in the tutorial and those players are fine for story mode. i also think the tutorial should be subdivided so that it can be quite comprehensive cause you can take a break and listen to the rest another time.
Best way is to do tutorials no doubt, ofcourse DM is definatly a good way of 'training' in some aspects of the game but I think it's not a good idea to assume people will find their way around DM only knowing the 'core mechanics'. The PT and CT tutorials were actually good enough for me, I found it very easy to grasp those, but I think my idea is a bit more interactive and is fun so who knows, worth a try IMO :P.
I'd rather have some watered down story mode or something rather than DM. DM just teaches people the wrong things and doesn't help them get a feel for the game at all. It teaches spies a lot of bad habits.
First, the idea that you want to go for necks instead of objectives.
Second, that it's okay to just sit and lie in wait for mercs instead of going for objectives.
If anything, some kind of training mode would probably be better. Like a one man or two man time trials thing, where you hack as many objectives as you can in a given time. Setting off alarms or making any noise penalizes you.
I don't really find that DM brings in many new players. Most people try story, decide they don't like and switch to DM permanently. I don't often see people start with DM and switch to story. Since it was splinter cell, most people are getting it for the stealth aspect. If they wanted a plain old shoot'em up, they'd have bought halflife 2.
Interesting idea.
i fully agree with invisible.
I brought up a training mode idea a while back.
Another idea I have would be pretty easy. We (meaning the vets and the people who played story mode) could each have schedules for hosting tutorial matches. What I mean by that is that we would all host on various maps and try to educate people on the mechanics of story mode and the specific maps. It would be much more intimate than a long tutorial, a lot more fun, and if they have any questions they could actually have them answered by one of us. We could each educate 3 newbs at a time. They each join your team, and you show them around the map and tell them about objectives and such. For the description we could say "Tutorial Match - Come Newcomers" and in the tutorial tell them to look for matches like that before they start actually playing competitive matches. Sound good?
A good game do not need any Tutorial.
You can just learn the game by yourself (what should be intuitive) and you can simply have Loading Screens with Tips.
A Deathmatch Mode is a must have for any multiplayer game and is a key feature to attract much more players all around the world.
Drop the tutorial stuff... the dev team could just create a .PDF for that.
hyrage = dm noob speaking
Quote from: Rambo on July 14, 2008, 08:53:37 PM
i fully agree with invisible.
3rd, thank god that someone other then Me, rambo and Stone see the light
Well all i'll say is, a DM game mode WILL attract more players.
When i started to play pt demo ..... I played a lot of dm during demo... So basicly i learned how to play this game from deathmatch so don't say please that almost nobody makes the transition . A lot of 'vets' started by playing deathmatches and learning from them and a lot of vets still played deathmatches during pt . I think Sithduke and Bionic or Sith and Xan , i don't rememmber now , did quite a lot .
Vets started to hate deathmatch when ct came out . Deathmatch in ct is stupid and not balanced + all the noobs forgot what is teamswitch in ct ...
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
Quote from: Spekkio on July 15, 2008, 03:28:41 AM
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
Spekkio is back xD YYAYAYYAYYAYYYYAYYAYYYAyAYAYYAYAYAYA!
Quote from: Papa Skull on July 14, 2008, 08:57:25 PM
I brought up a training mode idea a while back.
Another idea I have would be pretty easy. We (meaning the vets and the people who played story mode) could each have schedules for hosting tutorial matches. What I mean by that is that we would all host on various maps and try to educate people on the mechanics of story mode and the specific maps. It would be much more intimate than a long tutorial, a lot more fun, and if they have any questions they could actually have them answered by one of us. We could each educate 3 newbs at a time. They each join your team, and you show them around the map and tell them about objectives and such. For the description we could say "Tutorial Match - Come Newcomers" and in the tutorial tell them to look for matches like that before they start actually playing competitive matches. Sound good?
Anyone have anything to say about this?
Oh and hey spek!
Quote from: Spekkio on July 15, 2008, 03:28:41 AM
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
Thank god....
no, thank the allmighty spekkio XD
@papaskull: it's a little bit early to talk about stuff like a mentoring program, but i guess it's pretty doable. in rts games like supcom fa it's pretty common to have tutoring programms running, so why not in svm?
Quote from: Spekkio on July 15, 2008, 03:28:41 AM
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
I am not saying 'GMO MOAR GAEM MOADS PLZ!' . I am just saying if you just make story mode , almost noone will play the game ... . Well vet's will but all other newcomers are just gonna quit because they will find themself's useless in this game . It takes more time to learn this game than any other game out there in my opinion ... (fps game )
When in normal fps's you just need to learn the map to be decent , this is not the same in Ps or Ct . If you know the map , you will still be trashed around by people . You also need teamwork , tactics , knowledge of complex game mechanics and some experience to play this game well . Furthermore , there are only 2 games that are almost the same as Ps [ Pt and Ct ] , so when people come here , they don't know what to do ..... There are 100 of different fps's out there like doom , cod , unreal , cs or whatever else .... . Its true that this game is not a ' Shoot them up or Gun them down ' game , thats why newcomers need a gamemode which is something between Story and Fps Deathmatch to get acquainted with this game .....
Deathmatch has a bit different mechanics than Story mode but in general its the same game and a lot of things are similar : Equipment , Moves , Maps [ May be ] , Sound detection ... the only thing different is the thing that you need to do .
Quote from: Spekkio on July 15, 2008, 03:28:41 AM
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
More polished story mode? I don't see how the CT story mode itself could get any more 'polished'. I think the story mode itself is near enough perfect, just some gadgets / maps need tweaking. There's no denying the fact DM will bring more players to PS / make more people continue playing PS (Didn't most of the people who began playing Splinter Cell at Chaos theory and not PT start with deathmatch) and even if we have 300 active players, which I think is being rather optimistic, I still don't think it's enough. A deathmatch game mode would allow players to figure out the basic game mechanics (buttons, movement, and the GENERAL idea of the spy and merc like the spies are supposed to hide, and mercs kill kinda thing).
Quote from: Snakebit. on July 15, 2008, 02:46:55 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on July 15, 2008, 03:28:41 AM
Snakebit, how does playing a game with an entirely different set of mechanics and rules (DM) allow one to learn and adapt to another one (story)?
Aside from that, I'm not necessarily opposed to "gmo moar gaem moads pls!," but this project is being worked on by a handful of people during their free time. I'd much rather see a more polished story mode than an extra DM mode.
I am not saying 'GMO MOAR GAEM MOADS PLZ!' . I am just saying if you just make story mode , almost noone will play the game ... . Well vet's will but all other newcomers are just gonna quit because they will find themself's useless in this game . It takes more time to learn this game than any other game out there in my opinion ... (fps game )
When in normal fps's you just need to learn the map to be decent , this is not the same in Ps or Ct . If you know the map , you will still be trashed around by people . You also need teamwork , tactics , knowledge of complex game mechanics and some experience to play this game well . Furthermore , there are only 2 games that are almost the same as Ps [ Pt and Ct ] , so when people come here , they don't know what to do ..... There are 100 of different fps's out there like doom , cod , unreal , cs or whatever else .... . Its true that this game is not a ' Shoot them up or Gun them down ' game , thats why newcomers need a gamemode which is something between Story and Fps Deathmatch to get acquainted with this game .....
Deathmatch has a bit different mechanics than Story mode but in general its the same game and a lot of things are similar : Equipment , Moves , Maps [ May be ] , Sound detection ... the only thing different is the thing that you need to do .
Agreed.
Your basically suggesting that people wont play the game if it doesn't have DM, because they don't like Story Mode. If they don't like the story mode of SvM they have come to the wrong place I'm afraid, as that's the whole core of the game. The whole tactics of the game are MUCH different in DM, and well watered down for the more mainstream market - you don't worry about things like 'when should I hack this, do I need to clutch this merc to make this area easier, should I gas him?' it's all about jumping on their head or making a neck, or at the most deciding when you can't be seen to neck, and that is by no means sufficient training to play a game like this.
Invisibles idea is pretty cool, would also be great for training up yourself normally too, if my idea is too much work Invisibles owns 8). The ideas put out for training maps so far would be great for training people like pros too, imagine the competitiveness that would appear on the remote mine one :P.
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 15, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
(Didn't most of the people who began playing Splinter Cell at Chaos theory and not PT start with deathmatch)
no.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 15, 2008, 04:51:35 PM
Your basically suggesting that people wont play the game if it doesn't have DM, because they don't like Story Mode. If they don't like the story mode of SvM they have come to the wrong place I'm afraid, as that's the whole core of the game. The whole tactics of the game are MUCH different in DM, and well watered down for the more mainstream market - you don't worry about things like 'when should I hack this, do I need to clutch this merc to make this area easier, should I gas him?' it's all about jumping on their head or making a neck, or at the most deciding when you can't be seen to neck, and that is by no means sufficient training to play a game like this.
Invisibles idea is pretty cool, would also be great for training up yourself normally too, if my idea is too much work Invisibles owns 8). The ideas put out for training maps so far would be great for training people like pros too, imagine the competitiveness that would appear on the remote mine one :P.
I din't say they don't like it..... Don't jump to conclusions please . I said they don't know how to play story because it is complicated that is why a lot of people gonna leave . It is not very fun to get bashed by other people all the time , so deathmatch is just a way to teach them in a fun way .
And about deathmatch being different than story is not totaly true . Did you even read freemans or my previous posts ?
We said that it does have some differences but in general its the same game . Same gadjets , maps , sound detection , jump/neck tricks ...... And since when jumping or necking someone is useless in story ? The only thing that is different is the objective . In deathmatch you wanna kill the merc/spy , in story you just need to finnish objectives.
The reason I don't take into account your similarities is because they are wrong. In DM you only have 1 gadget, mercs don't have visions (although spies do), jumping is different because it's a one shot kill, and I didn't say it's wrong to neck in story, notice I said 'Do I need to clutch this merc to make this area easier'. Also I didn't jump to any conclusions, in almost every post you talk about how people don't like Story so they quit, well if they don't like it fair enough, but the ideal training environment is story mode.
DM wont teach you how to play Story mode, Story mode will teach you how to play DM without even mentioning the name, and that's all there is to it really. There is much more to story than 'objectives', the whole tactical approach is much different than it is to DM, after all you only have one objective in DM, and that is to kill.
Quote from: Westfall on July 15, 2008, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 15, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
(Didn't most of the people who began playing Splinter Cell at Chaos theory and not PT start with deathmatch)
no.
err, i think they did...remember i said those who started playing at CT, not PT players.
i might be an exception, but i started with story mode and played less than 2h dm so far i guess XD
Quote from: Westfall on July 15, 2008, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 15, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
(Didn't most of the people who began playing Splinter Cell at Chaos theory and not PT start with deathmatch)
no.
I haven't played hardly any DM. I never join a DM game intentionally and about the only time I ever "play" is when people insist on playing it while we wait for the game. Even then, I'd rather just sit in the lobby honestly. DM is boring as hell.
Really, I can't see how anyone actually likes DM mode in PT/CT, it might be more fun to eat shards of glass than to play DM.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on July 16, 2008, 01:01:23 AM
I haven't played hardly any DM. I never join a DM game intentionally and about the only time I ever "play" is when people insist on playing it while we wait for the game. Even then, I'd rather just sit in the lobby honestly. DM is boring as hell.
Really, I can't see how anyone actually likes DM mode in PT/CT, it might be more fun to eat shards of glass than to play DM.
YES, I BOW TO THEE WISE WORDS xD !!!!!!!!!!!!! , Keep it up champ.
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 15, 2008, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Westfall on July 15, 2008, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 15, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
(Didn't most of the people who began playing Splinter Cell at Chaos theory and not PT start with deathmatch)
no.
err, i think they did...remember i said those who started playing at CT, not PT players.
again, no. I started on CT and did not play DM b/c it was boring as shit.
DM is a bad thing. It will only attract stupid l33t kids. Who watched james bond a few times too many.
To Stone :
I said that dm mode in Ct sucks . I have already pointed out that some adjustments will need to be made for it become better and one of those adjustments is making all gadjets available for everybody , so it won't dumb down the tactics and stuff .
To People , who don't like dm :
Well a lot of people seem to like dm ... Simply by looking on the amount of Dm servers in pt/ct , you should be able to understand that . Even if 1% will go to story i am fine with it ....... so long as it brings more people , it is needed IMHO.
DM mode has nothing to do with the whole stealth concept. It's just running in, snap a neck and repeat.
The only suggestion you made then is all gadgets being available from the start, you didn't make any other suggestions as far as I'm aware. Although to be honest, DM is a bad mode from the get go in my opinion which only has place to be called an afterthought in a game like this.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 16, 2008, 05:46:53 PM
The only suggestion you made then is all gadgets being available from the start, you didn't make any other suggestions as far as I'm aware. Although to be honest, DM is a bad mode from the get go in my opinion which only has place to be called an afterthought in a game like this.
The 2nd point at my 1st post . It ment that all spies and mercs should have 4 gadjets not 1........
All gadjets were always available in pt/ct/da at start .......
Quote from: Wh1t3_Dw4rF on July 16, 2008, 03:24:55 PM
DM mode has nothing to do with the whole stealth concept. It's just running in, snap a neck and repeat.
Actually it does....when i used to play it i never aggro'd.
if 1 person from every country in the world switches from DM to story, i'll be happy. We will have more players. I really don't see what the problem is here, it woudn't take long to program, would it? Sometimes i just think some of you guys argue for the sake of arguing.
it would also lead to more morons in story mode cause not only cool people switch.
what i don't understand is why people who are more into a dm style don't simply play story mode in a more aggressive manner. guess they're just too retarded...
anyways, as long as a dm mode doesn't take too much dev time and server ressources, i'm fine with it. like snakebit said, it would be worth it for only a handful of new good story mode players. but i don't think it's an effective way to learn story mode, it's just a filter to keep the idiots out of story mode and helps making the transition easier for new players.
Quote from: Rambo on July 16, 2008, 09:16:08 PM
it would also lead to more morons in story mode cause not only cool people switch.
HAI I SWITCHED 4RM STORIE FUK YEW IM 50 C00L!!!TAEK IT BAK!!!!
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 16, 2008, 09:08:07 PM
Quote from: Wh1t3_Dw4rF on July 16, 2008, 03:24:55 PM
DM mode has nothing to do with the whole stealth concept. It's just running in, snap a neck and repeat.
Actually it does....when i used to play it i never aggro'd.
So you were one of those guys who just sat in a corner until the merc became so bored out of his mind that he didn't care about dying anymore?
he still is one of those, but i'm pretty sure he would pwn u ^^
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on July 17, 2008, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 16, 2008, 09:08:07 PM
Quote from: Wh1t3_Dw4rF on July 16, 2008, 03:24:55 PM
DM mode has nothing to do with the whole stealth concept. It's just running in, snap a neck and repeat.
Actually it does....when i used to play it i never aggro'd.
So you were one of those guys who just sat in a corner until the merc became so bored out of his mind that he didn't care about dying anymore?
Not really, I move about all the time, it's just the merc doesn't see me. I'm a stealthy player. I find it much more rewarding when i've snapped a merc, and he had absolutely no idea i was there, than to just bumrape him with flashes.
Well FR33M4N you prove my theory by the minute because if a merc getst necked by a stealthy spy in DM he really has to be a complete noob. This could be down to either their own intelligence or the fact they are unprepared for tactical thinking by a game like DM. Most good players wont be beaten by a stealthy spy in DM.
Quote from: Rambo on July 17, 2008, 05:16:27 PM
he still is one of those, but i'm pretty sure he would pwn u ^^
Freeman does beat most people Invisible, (PROM4N couple of topics ago) but i dont see how this is linked unless Rambo seems to be treating versus abilities as a competition. I dunno, could there be like a compulsory rank for Rambo in ps? no free/rank divide?
QuoteI din't say they don't like it..... Don't jump to conclusions please . I said they don't know how to play story because it is complicated that is why a lot of people gonna leave . It is not very fun to get bashed by other people all the time , so deathmatch is just a way to teach them in a fun way .
First of all, no one knows why PT/CT didn't catch on with the masses. It could be due to a lot of different factors, but it's impossible to determine exactly why.
Second of all, you are still stuck on this concept of teaching people how to play a game by having them play an almost entirely different game. That's ass backwards. Personally, I never played DM to "learn" SvM; the only way to get better at playing story is to play story and work on strats with your teammate. I have also never played DM for fun. Q3A and UT do DM far better than SvM could ever hope to, so I'll just load them up if I want to play DM.
Third of all, lets say that you are correct and DM attracts more players. How does more DM players help the people who prefer to play story?
Quote from: Spekkio on July 17, 2008, 06:41:40 PM
QuoteI have also never played DM for fun. Q3A and UT do DM far better than SvM could ever hope to, so I'll just load them up if I want to play DM.
Third of all, lets say that you are correct and DM attracts more players. How does more DM players help the people who prefer to play story?
Don't say UT do DM far better. The DM in PS will be a completely different style to DM in UT, so don't say something like that. Thats like saying i've got CSS, so i won't get ANY other FPS. I've got WoW so i wont get ANY other MMORPG. Be real here. PS DM offers a completely different experience to the UT DM or CSS.
Quote from: Spekkio on July 17, 2008, 06:41:40 PM
First of all, no one knows why PT/CT didn't catch on with the masses. It could be due to a lot of different factors, but it's impossible to determine exactly why.
there aren't that many games with tons of active mp players. i guess it's kinda hard for svm with no tradition of this genre, no uba promotion by the media and no working e-sports environment.
Quote from: Rambo on July 17, 2008, 07:29:18 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on July 17, 2008, 06:41:40 PM
First of all, no one knows why PT/CT didn't catch on with the masses. It could be due to a lot of different factors, but it's impossible to determine exactly why.
there aren't that many games with tons of active mp players. i guess it's kinda hard for svm with no tradition of this genre, no uba promotion by the media and no working e-sports environment.
Good Points well made. Young Padawan, learning, you are. ;D ;D.
Another Idea, I was on the xfire forums a few months back, when looking for a supported / unsupported game and they said if you email them with the game you want supported, they'll try their best to get it supported for the next release. That was all off of the top of my head, but maybe you could get some sort of promotion through xfire, they're always supporting lots of other shit, even girls clans and stuff. Could be worth a shot?
Not in this phase.
Quote from: frvge on July 17, 2008, 10:29:49 PM
Not in this phase.
Yerh i mean closer to the time. But it was just a thought.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on July 13, 2008, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on July 12, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
It would be easy. Just take off objectives, or turn em off, then add a customizable life limit.
I love how everything is always so easy.
I agree. Quit proposing to test EVERY IDEA. Jesus, I would love to test having 30 women at once, but it isn't easy. Same idea.
become a suicide bummer and u'll get 72 horny virgins if i remember correctly XD
Quote from: Rambo on July 20, 2008, 11:10:37 PM
become a suicide bummer and u'll get 72 horny virgins if i remember correctly XD
Just before you edit it ;) Did you intentionally put "bummer" or was there something else on your mind when you wrote that ;D
oh i just had achmed the dead terrorist in mind ;)
and now: SILENCE, I KILL U!
Quote from: Spekkio on July 17, 2008, 06:41:40 PM
QuoteI din't say they don't like it..... Don't jump to conclusions please . I said they don't know how to play story because it is complicated that is why a lot of people gonna leave . It is not very fun to get bashed by other people all the time , so deathmatch is just a way to teach them in a fun way .
First of all, no one knows why PT/CT didn't catch on with the masses. It could be due to a lot of different factors, but it's impossible to determine exactly why.
Second of all, you are still stuck on this concept of teaching people how to play a game by having them play an almost entirely different game. That's ass backwards. Personally, I never played DM to "learn" SvM; the only way to get better at playing story is to play story and work on strats with your teammate. I have also never played DM for fun. Q3A and UT do DM far better than SvM could ever hope to, so I'll just load them up if I want to play DM.
Third of all, lets say that you are correct and DM attracts more players. How does more DM players help the people who prefer to play story?
Spekkio i am talking from my experience . I have met several people outside ct in different games which have played Pt/Ct before and when i asked them why they didn't continue playing the game they usually all said something like ' The game is very complicated . I didn't know where to go or what to do and it wasn't funny to just get killed by mercs all the time. '
I don't get your argument about DM being 'ass backwards' . I posted few things about DM in my previous posts . Dm in Ct is crap , but it wasn't like it in PT ..... In Ct it got severely dumbed down . In dm people should have all gadjets [ 4 of them , not 1 ] , moves + something extra to kill mercs a bit easier .
Now why do you think they don't learn anything from dm ? You learn how gadjets work , even out of curiosity , people will try all of them out . Dm in ct just didn't allow that . You can learn the maps without being bashed by mercs. It's way easier to play mercs at start than spies , may be later when you get the hang of the game you can understand that some maps are easier to win with spies and some with mercs.[in story] But before anyone can understand it , he needs to play this game for some time and loosing all the time as spies and wining as mercs isn't something that noobs will like . On the other side Dm should provide a way for noobs to be able to win as spies and mercs .
And don't think that all people just stay and play dm all the time . Unlike you Spekkio , some of the players i know started playing this game and learning it by playing dm. I've had a lot of fun playing DM with Mosar during PT demo. Some players will move from dm to story when they understand that it's not the way for this game to be played .... simply dm still gets boring after some time . Well some will stay at dm , and whats wrong with that ? If they have fun ,i am fine with it . Even if story gains 1 good player from dm ,i will be happy .
Dm in q3 and Ut has a different set of mechanics and ways to play it . SvM Dm and Ut or Q3 Dms ARE NOT THE SAME games . You can't compare them because they are played differently . And i don't find Dm that boring in Pt and even Ct [ I always play dm , while i wait for people to join my server or any other server ].
Simply put Dm in pt/ct has its own advantages and disadvantages compared to ut/q3 .
you can't argue that the most effective way to learn story mode is playing story mode (and not dm or some other crap). svm isn't meant for people that consider it too complex in the first place because they would actually have to learn something new (as it doesn't play like the 973645878 fps shooters out there). my friends who tried ct mainly complained about the lack of a good tutorial (and the odd mouse implementation), not about the lack of a better dm mode.
Quote from: Rambo on July 23, 2008, 06:50:14 PM
you can't argue that the most effective way to learn story mode is playing story mode (and not dm or some other crap). svm isn't meant for people that consider it too complex in the first place because they would actually have to learn something new (as it doesn't play like the 973645878 fps shooters out there). my friends who tried ct mainly complained about the lack of a good tutorial (and the odd mouse implementation), not about the lack of a better dm mode.
And you can't argue that the most affective way to learn basic game mechanics (how the game is played, gadgets map) is easier in DM. All of my friends who play CT always started with DM. DM is an easy way to come to terms with the game. All of my friends who played were began playing ct all started with DM. DM would give players a way of learning maps without getting raped by mercs. I really don't see why one wouldnt want this implemented, i mean heck once story mode is complete, all you have to do is add a deathcount, and make the terminals / bombs unusable, seriously how long can that take? *looks at lennard*. Like snakebit if 10 dm players switch to story, which im sure they will, we'll have 10 more story players. I think you guys arent focusing on the broader picture. DM will attract / make people continue to play project stealth. Heck the first time i played PT Versus on xbox, i got my ass handed to me as soon as i got it. I didn't play it for a month because i didn't know what to do / kept getting owned. If they'd had been a dm mode, i wudve tried that, but there wasnt, so i just left it. A month or so later my frend persuaded me to retry it, said it was good. It was only then i began to like the game. DM WOULD MAKE THE GAME USER FRIENDLY!
What do you guys have against DM? It's also not you guys job to tell us that DM will take "too much time to program", because on the contrairy, it doesn't. Story is the biggest gametype in the game with probably the most coding, ofcourse we do that first (also because other gametypes have no relevant code to Story whatsoever). After that, gametypes as DM and probably some kind of Diskhunt or whatever nice gametype we can think off (eg. Hackglove gametype) will be added***.
Just for you guys who are wondering, DM will only take around 5 min to code... MAX! Timer is already in, so that's not needed, customizable lives is available in each gametype (can overwrite map settings), same goes for spawntime and hackable object aren't even in the base gametype, they get added in the story gametype only....
*** EXAMPLES!!!! NOT OFFICIAL!!!!
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 23, 2008, 11:19:21 PM
And you can't argue that the most affective way to learn basic game mechanics (how the game is played, gadgets map) is easier in DM.
you should learn this stuff in the
tutorial so that you aren't clueless when you start playing online. no need to add dm for this reason...
FR33M4N the whole flaw in what you're saying is that apparently we can't argue that playing the main game mode is a better way of learning how to play the game than DM is... and your absolutely wrong, because DM only teaches you how to do a few things like necking mercs, jumping on mercs, a gadget or two and basic stealth techniques, whereas Story Mode includes everything the game has to offer.
Oh and you do also say 'DM would give players a way of learning maps without getting raped by mercs.' Isn't the whole objective of Deathmatch to kill or be killed? That hardly seems like the best way to go about learning maps and not getting 'raped' by mercs.
You do say that DM would 'Make the game more user friendly' but what about when people decide to play Story Mode? If you think that wont be 'User friendly' then the basic aim of the game is lost, your suggesting people only play DM mode in that respect. The best way to learn to play the game is my idea of multiplayer tutorial maps IMO.
affirmative.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 24, 2008, 03:03:36 PM
FR33M4N the whole flaw in what you're saying is that apparently we can't argue that playing the main game mode is a better way of learning how to play the game than DM is... and your absolutely wrong, because DM only teaches you how to do a few things like necking mercs, jumping on mercs, a gadget or two and basic stealth techniques, whereas Story Mode includes everything the game has to offer.
Oh and you do also say 'DM would give players a way of learning maps without getting raped by mercs.' Isn't the whole objective of Deathmatch to kill or be killed? That hardly seems like the best way to go about learning maps and not getting 'raped' by mercs.
You do say that DM would 'Make the game more user friendly' but what about when people decide to play Story Mode? If you think that wont be 'User friendly' then the basic aim of the game is lost, your suggesting people only play DM mode in that respect. The best way to learn to play the game is my idea of multiplayer tutorial maps IMO.
I haven't had one tutorial which was fun, they just bore and annoy me. I'm not saying you can't argue this or that, i just get annoyed some people want dm out. I mean it can only add to the game, and there's no denying the fact it would bring more players to the game. The more gametypes the better IMO. In deathmatch on any map, you can move way more freely than story, we all know that. This would allow players to go explore the maps and get to know them. And I don't know how
'story mode has everything the game has to offer works. If DM goes with all gadgets etc, apart from the actual objectives of Deathmatch and Story, they're identical. You have to remember Splinter Cell is not the average FPS. Map knowledge is essential, either in DM or story, knowledge of the gadgets are essential, in both DM and story. Learning how to play, when to do things, when to aggro, when not to aggro, when to hide, when to rush, is essential. Learning Visions, and how the work, the flaws of using visions, mines and mine placement, hearing etc etc is essential. You can't say this is a 'User friendly' game, like a racing game for example. People play the game because it's challenging, and is different everytime, it's a complicated diverse game, and in no means is it user friendly. After a few weeks of solid playing, only then do you start to realise what everything does and how it works. Atleast in Deathmatch one would be able to MORE freely explore maps and gadgets, and come to terms with the basic game mechanics, like gadgets, visions (and the flaws of them), movement, stealth, aggro etc. DM doesn't rely on teamwork as much as story IMO. On some maps in story, for example station without teamwork you're fucked. So if you're new to the game with no knowledge of the map and you just follow your partner, you wont learn anything. Atleast in DM you'd be able to move more freely. I think having a deathmatch would HELP new players come to terms with the mechanics of the game, but MAYBE if the tutorial was done very well, interactive, on a fun and interesting map with good narration, it could work. I think a combination of a good deathmatch mode, and a decent tutorial is the way to go. I mean after all, sometimes you just wanna play a bit of DM:P.
dm might bring in more/new players, but it could also give them a wrong impression of svm. i'm not totally against it as it works as a filter afterall, but it can in no way replace a tutorial. in order to make this community grow, there must happen 3 things:
-good tutorial
-balanced e-sport environment (fast and regular balance patches, a replay system, regular tournaments, ...)
-good advertisement
Quote from: Rambo on July 24, 2008, 01:05:06 AM
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 23, 2008, 11:19:21 PM
And you can't argue that the most affective way to learn basic game mechanics (how the game is played, gadgets map) is easier in DM.
you should learn this stuff in the tutorial so that you aren't clueless when you start playing online. no need to add dm for this reason...
Heck then how many tutorials we thinking of here? 5- 10? They'd all be long as fuck aswell, after a while you'd just switch off. I mean when you read something, how much of it do you remember? It's only through repetition that you actually remember everything. Nobody wants to do 5 long ass tutorials 5 times each. There will be so much to learn in the tutorial I think it will be to much. DM would just allow players to practise what they've learnt in the tutorial. You can't teach stealth in a tutorial you know.
Quote from: Rambo on July 24, 2008, 04:01:13 PM
dm might bring in more/new players, but it could also give them a wrong impression of svm. i'm not totally against it as it works as a filter afterall, but it can in no way replace a tutorial. in order to make this community grow, there must happen 3 things:
-good tutorial
-balanced e-sport environment (fast and regular balance patches, a replay system, regular tournaments, ...)
-good advertisement
Ah yeh, good point about the tournies, that'd be awesome.
hopefully the ping/netcode will allow intercontinental tournaments, too =)
well the tutorial must comprehend
-controls, movement (climbing, crouching, coop, quick-dive, wall-jump etc)
-every function of the hud including special visions (incl. what exactly sets off the sound reticule, mt, emf etc)
-weapons and gadgets (function and different uses)
-passive security
-all types of objectives
-interaction with the enemy: tazing/grabbing/pushing a merc model/bot
-basic map layout of the beta map
-short video examples of teamplay and actual gameplay incl reminder that it's about the objectives and not about killing the opponent (covering each other, splitting up in one merc's area, diversions etc)
most of this stuff should probably be done seperately for merc and spy.
the tutorial should consist of several standalone levels so that you don't have to play the tutorial for 45min and can return to previous lessons easily once a question arises online.
there also should be some link to a newcomer forum section...
Quote from: Rambo on July 24, 2008, 05:05:39 PM
hopefully the ping/netcode will allow intercontinental tournaments, too =)
well the tutorial must comprehend
-controls, movement (climbing, crouching, coop, quick-dive, wall-jump etc)
-every function of the hud including special visions (incl. what exactly sets off the sound reticule, mt, emf etc)
-weapons and gadgets (function and different uses)
-passive security
-all types of objectives
-interaction with the enemy: tazing/grabbing/pushing a merc model/bot
-basic map layout of the beta map
-short video examples of teamplay and actual gameplay incl reminder that it's about the objectives and not about killing the opponent (covering each other, splitting up in one merc's area, diversions etc)
most of this stuff should probably be done seperately for merc and spy.
the tutorial should consist of several standalone levels so that you don't have to play the tutorial for 45min and can return to previous lessons easily once a question arises online.
there also should be some link to a newcomer forum section...
Thats a lot to cover, in a short time. Maybe 5 or 6 tuts all split up into sections would be better.
yeah absolutely.
I still think my idea of the special MP tutorials is best :P.
I'm not arguing that DM shouldn't be included because it should - to stop people loading story games only to find people playing DM :P. However, there is a lot more to the upgrade from DM to Story than gadgets and objectives, the whole tactics of the game start rolling in the other direction, the path to 'the real world' :P. I'll bring my idea up again.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 13, 2008, 07:33:59 PM
Obviously this is a multiplayer game, so why do all the tutorials have to be single player? There could be one spy only multiplayer map to show the spies all their moves, gadgets and how security works and everything else, and one for mercs with the same purpose. After that there could be a few more multiplayer tutorial levels, except this time for 2 spies AND 2 mercs. In these maps the spies and mercs must each work together to stop the other team from succeeding in their objective.
Imagine you load up and each team is spawned in a room, and a video appears in the middle of the screen a bit like on the beginning of the match on Double Agent, except the game is paused and you have to watch through the whole thing (unless you are playing through the map and it's not your first time, you would then have the option to skip) which would describe the objective of the map, give tips on the kind of things you can use to complete the objective, then the video switches off. Countdown - 3, 2, 1, GO! Imagine this - you must use co-ops moves to progress up a large building to it's roof (Leg-ups, throwing across gaps, rappelling) and the mercs have to try and stop you before you complete the objective (Camnet while other scouts using lifts for example). Each team has to win that stage twice before they can move on, and each round players swap teams.
Next round, same again except this time you are placed in a large map with many vents, and the spies must sneak through them to the other side of the map, the mercs must stop them doing this, but how? Remember the remote mine from DA? Imagine each merc has to use these while communicating with each other to make their way through the vents to find the spies. They have a limit of 1 each, so if they mis-fire they are out and have to travel on foot to each exit searching for the spies, the spies must communicate with each other to avoid the remote mines and make it to the finish. There could be a few more rounds after this, but I have to go soon so I can't describe my ideas right now.
Throughout tutorials maps, the ghosting Double Agent took advantage of should be used. This would help the spies and mercs find useful ways of using the environment to their advantage, so they have a better chance of surviving in the real game. The purpose of these tutorial map would be basically to build on communication skills and team play - SvM is all about team play and without working together you will fail, and these maps would make sure you have the skills to play together. :D
a mp tutorial map sounds like a nice idea for the last step of the tutorial, but i guess it's kinda hard to find some1 else doing the tut after the first weeks...
Quote from: Rambo on July 24, 2008, 04:01:13 PM
-good tutorial
-balanced e-sport environment (fast and regular balance patches, a replay system, regular tournaments, ...)
-good advertisement
The other thing I'd add to that is
-obvious mechanics (if you make sound, you should know you're making sound for instance and you should have a good idea as to how far away a merc can hear it, you should not require a partner to test the basic game mechanics)
There are ideas for some nice visual feedback for that. I dont know about the exact range tho, but we'll probably find something for that too.
glowing colourful rings around the spy
Visible to the merc too, for better gameplay ::)
No one will do the MP tutorials. I mean i know everything for the community blablablabla but who wants to spend all that time with some noob who will probably fuck about running round in circles not doing a thing. Just make the "MP" tutorial a bot Merc / Spy. Problem solved. The bot doesnt have to be good either, like inteligent or anything, just so long as it can move and shoot randomly. But thats probly a hell of a lot of coding. Not that i know anything about anything or whatever.
Go forward (random distance)
Turn around randomly
Check if wall in front
If yes
Turn 180 and shoot
If not
Shoot
Repeat.
^Random movement.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on July 26, 2008, 02:36:56 PM
Go forward (random distance)
Turn around randomly
Check if wall in front
If yes
Turn 180 and shoot
If not
Shoot
Repeat.
^Random movement.
I'll make a easter egg called LiquidsMove, which will spawn a bot that acts like that ;D
Quote from: frvge on July 25, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
There are ideas for some nice visual feedback for that. I dont know about the exact range tho, but we'll probably find something for that too.
Or incorporate the CT singleplayer style stealth meter as I suggested a while ago.
@Snakebit:
DM is stupid in PT and CT, and anyone else who thinks otherwise is retarded. In PT, all you had to do was find a rail, jump on it, and stand there and taze/snipe the spies to death. That's it. As soon as a player discovers how to do this, or how to sit in a corner with his back against the wall, DM is completely ruined. This isn't a glitch, it isn't a cheat,
it's just how the game works. The spies stand no chance at killing the mercs if the mercs don't have to move. In CT it's even easier -- just back your ass into a corner and shoot the spies until they die.
@ Lennard,
In order for a DM mode in PS to be feesible [read: remotely fun], you need to reprogram a lot more than a game menu and the game clock. You'd have to redo a lot of core mechanics that make DM unplayable in PT/CT, and you'd have to make maps geared toward that game mode.
Anyone who says that SvM DM can be "fun" because it's "different" than Q3 or whatever is just too stupid to figure out the above. But apparently, according to Snakebit, the average DMer in CT is too stupid to find the alternate settings to re-enable all the gadgets in DM.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on July 26, 2008, 03:13:36 PM
I'll make a easter egg called LiquidsMove, which will spawn a bot that acts like that ;D
Yes and always spawn it between two walls, facing one.
Quote from: Spekkio on July 26, 2008, 06:38:19 PM
But apparently, according to Snakebit, the average DMer in CT is too stupid to find the alternate settings to re-enable all the gadgets in DM.
The sad thing is, that's actually true. At least for the xbox version.
I know this is a rather old post, but its still on the first page so here's my two cents.
How about spy vs. spy combat, like in old gen Double Agent. People did like it some. And the balance hopefully wouldn't have to be worked through as much.
Sucks. I'd rather have Merc vs Merc then.
There's CS/COD/UT/Quake for that.