What do you guys think of "back to wall" like singleplayer -so that when you approach walls you automatically do a back to wall and can then walk along the wall like that. To exit the position you need only move away from wall....so no need for a key press to do the animations.
This could open doors in map design where you could walk through narrow gaps and along narrow ledges.
And standing on Rails?
I think we should be able to do something passable...but not rail camping.
ie: spies can stand-walk-crouch-crouch walk-jump on rails but not run more then 3-4 steps
mercs can stand or walk for 3-4 seconds before losing balance.
This allows for the much needed jumping over rails, but remove the camping tactics.
I love that idea. It would most likely improve the spies' possibilities to infiltrate and exfiltrate the area and reduce the line of sight of the mercs. Oh, and what about the SWAT turn? The one in the singleplayer in SCPT, remember? I loved that move as well (too bad Ubi pulled the plug on that move).
Why not making this thread the official moves discussion thread? We might even create some moves of our own, huh?
EDIT: About that "balance" feature you're talking about... It's not a bad idea, but it's missing something.
Spies should be able to perform both stances (stand and crouch) and move in both slow and fast speeds while on the rails.
Now, the balance feature.
Why not do it "Prince of Persia" style? As you move further, you lose balance and lean to the left or the right, and all you have to do to is tap the key corresponding to the opposite direction to which you're leaning.
Stay tuned for the next chapter: Rolls ;D.
Who wants the mic?
I would personally like it the way Goodkebab stated, except you would have to be pushing forward hard enough to actually press on the wall. I mean I don't want it where you are slowly moving and it automatically pushes you on the wall, it should only happen when you are pushing forward hard enough ( running, walking while crouched ). BTW it isn't on Single Player, you have to push a button to press on a wall, atleast on console maybe PC?
Rail Camping shouldn't even happen right? I think you should round off the edges so if a merc jumps on one he would just slide off. Not necessarily as a spy, spies should be able to walk on rails all day long imo, because of their athleticness and how nimble they are.
Moves that should be implemented in PS:
Inverted Neck Snap - Why wasn't this done before? It would be hard to pull it off since it can only be done in a few places like in Club House. All of the railings below the glass structure in the Zen Garden would be perfect if it were a little darker.
Swat Turn - It would be nice to have, easy to pass from one cover to another fairly quickly.
MORE PLACES TO SPLIT JUMP!! Good lord, this would be cool but there is barely any places to do it! And they aren't very useful where they are in the first place. Please, design maps with more places that are useful to use this.
Humiliation moves - Those were cool in DA. They should be better than just banging your head to a spy's head though. I am talking hitting them with the butt of your gun then picking up their bodies and throwing them. Maybe for spy you crack their neck then kick them to the ground or something.
Rappeling For mercs - Of course this may change the gameplay and the way you design maps, but I thought rappelling as mercenary was pretty useful in DA.
MORE PLACES TO DO COOP moves!! There weren't enough in CT, let's be honest. Also I would like to see that move from CT CoOp where you throw one of your fellow spies. This would knock a merc down, maybe not knocking him out, but just knocking him down for a few seconds. And it would also help for evading security, like throwing him through a laser grid or something like that.
I would like to climb poles from all angles like DA.
I would like to be able to swing myself over a rail and grab the other side like DA.
Obviously there were a few things about DA that everyone liked and I think those few should be implemented into this. ;D
i would also love inverted neck snap.
coop and split move are due to map designs...
humilition moves, although cool, do not effect gameplay (usually) so cannot be a high priority. -would you rather see a inverted neck snap, or a new humilition move if you could only choose one?
About rail camping, i want to add the controls for spies to easily get on rail so that they can easily get in position for a rail grab. Right now its a bit of luck to jump on rail.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 05, 2007, 08:50:11 PM
What do you guys think of "back to wall" like singleplayer -so that when you approach walls you automatically do a back to wall and can then walk along the wall like that. To exit the position you need only move away from wall....so no need for a key press to do the animations.
No, don't have it hapen automatically, worst thing you want is to be running from a merc and hit a wall that you were trying to go around and then have the game put you in back to wall mode, making you a stationary and easily hittable target. I prefer the button to do it.
About rail camping, I honestly don't even care. If mercs want to rail walk, whatever. It's kind of stupid and unrealistic, but I don't think it breaks the game, unless you're talking deathmatch, which I don't even care about.
And lets forget about humiliation moves, at least not in the first release of Project Stealth. I figure there's enough important work to be done without worrying about animating inverted neck snaps and the like which will only be used to bash newbies. Remember, we want to attract people to this game, not scare them away. And having specific newbie bash features are just going to make them not want to play. There's nothing more disheartening as merc than losing all your lives. I mean these guys are already getting their asses handed to them as spies and probably are easy as hell to sneak past. We really don't need to rub more salt in the wound. There are better things to do with coding time.
Ok. So, I'll do a brief summary of what's being mentioned here:
-back to wall
This move would be performed by a spy if one would go through narrow spaces.
-rail camping for both teams
Good idea, specially for mercs. They'd get more vision angle, thus spotting spies in lower ground more easily.
Balance element also included. This feature would make life a little more challenging, but it's not really a priority.
-SWAT turn
This move has been implemented on SCPT's singleplayer (of course everyone know that!).
It's a very quick maneuver which allows a spy to cross narrow corridors, reducing the chances of being spotted my a merc.
-Inverted neck snap
Move implemented in SCCT's singleplayer.
This move would allow a spy to snap a merc's neck when horizontal pipe.
-Humiliation moves
Not a priority, but still a different animation to finish the opponents.
-Rappelling for mercs
Move implemented in SCDA's multiplayer.
It's a move which allows a merc to quickly descend to lower ground using a rail and a rope.
Others (level design):
-More Split-jump areas
-More COOP areas
I think that's it for now. If I missed something, I ask the mods to edit my post.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 05, 2007, 08:50:11 PM
What do you guys think of "back to wall" like singleplayer -so that when you approach walls you automatically do a back to wall and can then walk along the wall like that. To exit the position you need only move away from wall....so no need for a key press to do the animations.
Not a fan. The less automation the better. Pressing Z isn't all that difficult.
QuoteThis could open doors in map design where you could walk through narrow gaps and along narrow ledges.
You could still have this; it just requires the player to press Z instead of happening automatically. Ultimately, though, such an area would be a deathtrap for spies so I would imagine they'd avoid it.
QuoteAnd standing on Rails?
I think we should be able to do something passable...but not rail camping.
ie: spies can stand-walk-crouch-crouch walk-jump on rails but not run more then 3-4 steps
mercs can stand or walk for 3-4 seconds before losing balance.
This allows for the much needed jumping over rails, but remove the camping tactics.
I'll be the first to agree that railcamping is gay, but I don't think it can be removed without addressing a ton of other work. it has to go both ways, and that severely limits the spy's ability to jump the merc...or are the spies able to railcamp because they have more agility? The other thing is that you'd have to modify this for much more than rails. Any area where the merc can stand on a small surface is an area where the merc cannot be grabbed. A much better fix is to ensure that that map makers don't give mercs rails to camp on with no other way to neutralize them.
Inverted neck snap would be really cool. Rapelling for mercs wouldn't.
There might be some misunderstanding here. The back to wall goodkebab is referring to is the one implemented in SCCT's singleplayer. If you go through a narrow space, you'll automatically do it.
Of course you'll still need to press Z to perform the normal back to wall, but not this one. This one is excursively for narrow spaces.
I know what he's talking about, and it's pointless. In CT singleplayer they just streamlined it so that the user doesn't have to press a button (Q in SC1 and 2). I think this is bad. In multiplayer, the more control a player has over his character's actions, the better.
Moreover, such spaces in maps wouldn't be very useful to have at in terms of gameplay, much like the super-tight vents in CT. I think CT wouldn't be any worse if those annoying things weren't included in the game.
Oh ok. Then pull the plug on automatic back to wall for narrow spaces. Made it so you need to press a key.
This maneuver needs a new name, don't you think? I mean, "back to wall for narrow spaces"? It takes some times to write that...lol
Um, no, it's still back to wall. The reason you don't see anyone making spaces like this in current SvM maps is because it'd be shitty for gameplay.
Isn't rail camping hard because you can't get the mercs off? While I personally think rail camping is bad form. I think limiting the imagination of a player is also just as bad.
My proposal would be to add two new animations. One for the merc, one for the spy.
A merc railcamping has an advantage, with the only down side to be knocked off on to the platform or the ground below. Instead, when a merc is knocked he slips and falls, breaking his back on the rail. Kill for the spy. The new animation would be the merc getting knocked and breaking his back on the rail.
The new animation for a spy would be from the rail grab. Instead of pulling the merc over, he pulls on the merc foot, making him slip and break his back.
This makes railcamping, still possible and annoying as hell. But comes at a price if a spy get's close enough. There was no penalty before for the merc. Now he rail camps at the cost of a life.
Foot-grab, huh? It's a new concept. It's possible and it's a good way to raise some hell. Please make it reality.
Question is: how do you program the game to discern between a merc perched on top of a rail and a merc perched on any old platform?
I agree with Daybreak in general though -- I'd much rather see a counter to railcamping implemented, rather than just disabling the ability to walk on rails altogether.
Answer: Geometric Event? I've "played" around in Unreal Map Editor myself...lol
For those who don't know what Geometric Event is, well, it's what enables the player to perform every interaction with ledges, ladders, poles, vertical pipes and such.
These interactions require a predefined animation, and aren't too hard to put if the map editor is ready to use the different interactions.
Wanted, Geometric Events are an addition by the Ubisoft team to the Unreal engine. They are not 'standard', so if we go that way, we'll have to program it ourselves.
How about to be able to walk on the rails you will have to move constantly, like if you stop you fall down? Other than that I don't know, cause making separate animation just for that is not practical. Adding new grabbing technique would be also too complex. It also depends on map design as it wasn't much of an issue on most ct maps.
Quote from: frvge on September 06, 2007, 01:04:28 AM
Wanted, Geometric Events are an addition by the Ubisoft team to the Unreal engine. They are not 'standard', so if we go that way, we'll have to program it ourselves.
Yeah, I know that, but you'll have to implement GEs in your maps somehow. If you don't somehow make a quick and "semi-automatic" way to implement GEs, then level designers will sure have a bad time putting them... Unless you find another way to implement a code that allows the player to perform those actions...
Quote from: kronf on September 06, 2007, 01:13:02 AM
How about to be able to walk on the rails you will have to move constantly, like if you stop you fall down? Other than that I don't know, cause making separate animation just for that is not practical. Adding new grabbing technique would be also too complex. It also depends on map design as it wasn't much of an issue on most ct maps.
Nice idea :)
hate to rain on Y 'alls parade but, to be honest , if its gonna be realistic theres no fucking way a merc can sit on a rail with 50 + pounds of kit and be able to balance properly.. though i will say the ideas are cool , just thought id give my input upon this ;D
Realism, is that what you just said? Since when is this game about realism? I think tight spaces would be good for gameplay, of course it would depend on where they are added, but if they get to some places you wouldn't normally be able to reach then it would be cool.
What about the crawl move on DA? Where it is a super low vent and the spy goes into a crawling animation and crawls through whatever lowhanging object or wall it is.
ESCAPE MOVES!! I forgot about those, one of the only things that I really liked about DA. It really helped when you were able to swing yourself into a ceiling or jump out of a window.
What about a creep sort of walk? Like MGS? You are creeping slowly while standing up, don't make noise but you are pretty visible since you are standing up. It would be useful for creeping behind a merc but if you are spotted you can easily run away because you are already in a standing position.
How about some kind of combo attack as a spy? What if you elbow a merc from the front, then you push jump right after the elbow and you jump onto the merc shoulders and jump over him? That would be cool! Imagine elbowing a merc, then jumping onto him then over him onto a railing and escaping! IMO that would rock and wouldn't alter the gameplay that much.
I think we should just make it like DA, where the leg physics take over. If The rail you are standing on is thinner than what both of your legs can stand on realistically, it will drop you from the rail, but if you are moving fast and jump on the rail, it will let you stay on, until you stop moving. Then it kicks you off again. lol
Did that make any sense?
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 12:29:10 AM
I agree with Daybreak in general though -- I'd much rather see a counter to railcamping implemented, rather than just disabling the ability to walk on rails altogether.
What if we implemented a little push added to the sticky shocker effect? So in addition to getting shocked, you get nudged a bit. Wouldn't be too significant in general play, but it'd be enough of a move to knock someone off a rail possibly.
I can find a lot of uses for walking along walls -mainly to be able to go where mercs cannot, without there logically being a vent. It gives freedom to create corridors just with boxes, or to be able to walk on the outside of a building where Mercs cannot (like 2nd sector Orphanage).
I understand the annoyance of automated movement...especially the trouble it gets you into in CT -auto roll into mines. Walking along wall is only possible in crouch or a standing walk(never used), so i do have doubts if it would interfere with normal control.
Though, I would like to see that the spy can move across the wall like in Singleplayer. I hate it that the SPy goes standing against the wall in CT Versus, without being able to move.
And I dont think auto-walling is a good idea, just use a button, which give you more control when YOU want it.
as long as the button frigging works. in ct i can never get off the damn wall when i need to
Quote from: goodkebab on September 05, 2007, 08:50:11 PM
What do you guys think of "back to wall" like singleplayer -so that when you approach walls you automatically do a back to wall and can then walk along the wall like that. To exit the position you need only move away from wall....so no need for a key press to do the animations.
Bindings? Just like in the Grab/Bash thread.
inverted grabs - yes please
rails - stop moving = fall off, spies grab ledge
back to wall - use button please
coop - yes (add new one like SCCt coop)
backflip - yes please
escape moves - yes
merc rappel - yes
if you put places above rails (covered and dark) could be a counter to rail walking. kinda hard to look up and keep moving around shooting. soon will fall off or something or grabbed w/e.
Quote from: seefoo. on September 06, 2007, 01:32:01 PM
inverted grabs - yes please
rails - stop moving = fall off, spies grab ledge
back to wall - use button please
coop - yes (add new one like SCCt coop)
backflip - yes please
escape moves - yes
merc rappel - yes
if you put places above rails (covered and dark) could be a counter to rail walking. kinda hard to look up and keep moving around shooting. soon will fall off or something or grabbed w/e.
dito
but im very unsure about the merc rappel, and changing direction on rails should be considered as a stop => fall off.
Yes to all cept merc rappelling it sucks.
Quote from: seefoo. on September 06, 2007, 01:32:01 PM
inverted grabs - yes please
rails - stop moving = fall off, spies grab ledge
back to wall - use button please
coop - yes (add new one like SCCt coop)
backflip - yes please
escape moves - yes
merc rappel - yes
Don't forget SWAT turn. Would be cool to add the half split jump with double jumping (when in HSJ position, press jump button to get higher ground, like in SCPT singleplayer).
Know what? Basically I would love to see pretty much every moves/maneuvers that are in the SCDA multi plus the moves mentioned above. Would rock!
Here's a different idea:
One of the reasons that rail camping is so powerful is because the merc can't get grabbed up there. You need a platform of a certain width in order to grab the merc, otherwise you just elbow him. In the new engine, can't you just make a merc grabbable on a rail? That would pretty much solve the problem without any radical changes. It'd also solve the problem of people not getting grabbed on certain surfaces because there's not enough room for the animation. If the spy doesn't have room for an animation or it looks silly, you can have him do a throw-off move that kills the merc.
Likewise, could you make it so that you can grab mercs on inclines? Make a new animation for incline/decline if needed so it doesn't look ridiculous. For example, on a decline the spy can jump on the mercs back to take him down into a choke hold, then you can choose to KO him by slamming his head into the floor or kill him by choking him out. Most of the time it's easy to avoid this frustrating experience because stairs are obvious, but have you tried grabbing mercs near the rubble in transformer room in factory? It just doesn't work out because the ground is ever-so-slightly uneven.
PS: The swat turn is gay. Humans aren't going to just ignore you when they see you flipping around in front of their face the way the NPCs do in SCPT.
Swat turn is gay. I can agree to that, but what I wouldn't mind seeing is a quick side roll or side step. You can roll forward to get away. I thought, it'd be nice to be able to roll side ways. Or side spin to the side. For quick hidding purposes or side stepping a charge. Or for quick reveals, rather than just poping out from cover, you roll out and shoot. I just think it would be usefull to have siderolling.
I'll make a picture thingy.
@ rail camping
i agree with spekkio's idea to make them grabbable, but how about also making it possible to ledge grab them. I know nothing about making animations and what not, and maybe someone already said this, but when the merc is on a rail, make it so the spy can just reach up and pull them off... maybe but the ankle? it actually seems more plausible than the real ledge grab.
just an idea.
BAH! i just saw daybreak's post saying the same thing...well... bravo daydreak, i'm slow
I'd be for that as well; the problem is being able to have the game discern between a merc camping on top of a rail and a merc just standing on top of a box. I really don't think we need to add hanging box grabs to the game.
The thing about SWAT turn isn't become invisible to the merc like you mentioned, Daybreak. Of course a merc would spot a spy doing it, but the SWAT turn is a very quick move, so the merc would have less chances to spot the spy.
SWAT turn is also good when in corner shooting, that way you'd have a better cover (remember, a moving target is always harder to pinpoint than a static target).
Oh, talking about corner shooting, pleeeeease implement the "switch shoulder" feature. It's really annoying to shoot with only the right hand...
swat turn wont make it into the game...its a cool move that has no believable function against human opponents.
One thing we can do is that a Spy Punch to a mercs foot will knock the merc down -but not unconscious.
The only way a spy can punch a mercs foot is if he is on a rail.
What about giving the spies the ability to grab mercs on rails?
oh, but swat turn is soo cool...
truth is swat turn had "no believable function" against human or NPC opponents. In SCPT, if you performed it while an opponent was looking in your direction, you'd be detected.
Swat turn is a quick and silent move, it's a great way to switch positions of cover, and that's what makes it so great. But if you don't want to add it to the moves list, you don't have to. It's your call. I'm just giving you some reasons why you should put it, that's all...
It would have to be a specific attack animation that would only happen when the spys arm hit box collides with the lower leg hit boxes of the merc. This only happens when spy is crouched and punches, or if merc is elevated above spy....either by rails, standing on boxes, stairs, ledges, what have you....this could also apply in situations where Merc falls onto an unsuspecting spy.
Currently, height is a significant advantage for mercs because spies cannot grab unless both players are standing on a flat surface and mercs can beserk against jumping spies. Mercs can also charge up and down stairs.
To balance that advantage, i think its fair to give spies the ability to roll and dive up stairs like in DA.
Also, having punch and grab as a seperate button will help aleviate confusion.
That brings back the controls issue...I am a freak when it comes to efficient hotkeys -using software that values 10k and requires hundreds of commands mapped to the keyboard has tought me the appreciation of efficiency.
So i suggest pressing a hotkey to do back to wall, but no key necessary to exit this position(you merely move away from wall). Spies will be free to walk-crouch along the wall, allowing for greater stealth and
even new escape routes.
The next move i suggest, is taken from Colossus, which is the vertical ledge climb, where spy leverages a foothold while grabbing a ledge and vertically pushes himself high enough to grab a ledge further up.
QuoteIt would have to be a specific attack animation that would only happen when the spys arm hit box collides with the lower leg hit boxes of the merc. This only happens when spy is crouched and punches, or if merc is elevated above spy....either by rails, standing on boxes, stairs, ledges, what have you....this could also apply in situations where Merc falls onto an unsuspecting spy.
Eh, you'll have too many people trying frontal attacks on stairs trying to knock out the mercs if you do that, especially working in a 2v1 tandem. At least with grabs you just have to protect your back...with this stuff, you pretty much can't be safe at all. Your move sounds similar to the KO attack when a merc is crouching. If so it'll make stairs a no-go zone the way they were in PT with SS + DJ.
I still say the simplest solution is to allow the merc to be grabbed while perched on rails and on stairwells. If you need new animations to make it work, fine, but it should take the same net time to kill a merc as if you did a grab on a normal, flat surface. You don't need any of this fancy stuff to allow instant KOs and stuff like that.
There shouldn't be a "safe haven" for either team in terms of positioning, and the mercs will still have a positional advantage when they are higher up because the spies have to actually get up there to grab him.
I don't think it'll be hard to program for a spy to know if a merc is on the rail or not. Just like with the rail grab, some how the game knows there's a rail there for a rail grab. I would imagine it's the same thing, though I could be wrong.
I'm not happy with just knocking the merc off rail. He's being lame standing on a it and should be punnishable by death if he lets a spy get so close to him. Die rail climbers.
Even if you could grab a merc standing on a rail, how would you do it? I mean a rail camper is probably not going to be facing the opposite direction and turning his back to you, and there's no way to actually get behind him, because there's just a drop there. Unless you side grab, it doesn't seem like you'll have much chance of grabbing the merc, even if the game allowed it.
Kind of a pointless waste of an animation if you ask me.
The easiest thing is just to have the sticky shocker give a merc a little push. So you can shoot him off the rail from a distance, if grabbing a rail camper is really something you care about.
Of course, one could also just solve the problem by being stealthy. Not every solution in this game has to involve necking or KOing the merc. Personally, I've never even had a problem with rail camping, but then I do a stealth strategy and not an aggro one.
swat move seems overkill and not really needed, the passages for back-to-wall could be extremely usefull if implemented properly and as far as rail camping... I never saw much of an issue with a spy on a rail. He still eats bullets just fine. The merc however can be a pain. The leg punch isn't a bad idea but what about just simply having him fall off if sticky shocked? I don't know of anyone who could balance on a 2 inch rail while being electrocuted. Your nervous system just got highjacked and your equilibrium gets screwed all to hell. If you've never been hit with a tazer or stun-gun you might not understand the sensation, but I have and it severely cripples you. You can't even talk right after being hit with one, none of your muscles respond correctly etc.
QuoteOf course, one could also just solve the problem by being stealthy. Not every solution in this game has to involve necking or KOing the merc. Personally, I've never even had a problem with rail camping, but then I do a stealth strategy and not an aggro one.
Oh yea, cuz that railcamping merc in Station sector 2 or Deftech outer courtyard that can see everything in the damn room isn't going to see you when you walk across in front of his face.
Oh yea, and stealth will really work on that merc railcamping in Pirates on Aquarius when you don't have any other objectives left to do.
Not only is rail camping a positional advantage, it also alows the merc to instantly repel to where you are rather than being limited by stairs. Which is why most don't like the merc repel.
Depending on level design, merc repeling may be necessary.
I'd rather keep the railwalking and not introduce rapelling. If rapelling does make it into PS, I think it'd be best if it came in the form of an actual gadget that you had to pick along with the introduction of other new gadgets.
Still, kronf said it best: the first thing to do is to copy SCCT's gameplay exactly with the glaring bugs fixed. Play it out, then tweak things slightly from there. Even though adding grabs on rails/stairs is a small change, it has the potential to really screw up balance.
As for kebab saying back to wall should exit more easily: I agree somewhat. Keep in mind that the variable camera angle might make it so that people exit back-to-wall accidentally when trying to move along the wall.
The best fix is good map-making -- don't put rails in a map where the merc can stand on them overlooking an entire room and never have to worry about being jumped on.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 09:34:30 PM
Oh yea, cuz that railcamping merc in Station sector 2 or Deftech outer courtyard that can see everything in the damn room isn't going to see you when you walk across in front of his face.
Station sector 2? Just climb the pole to the top, and then drop in to one of the objectives.
Deftech is a merc map anyway, you're almost screwed no matter what the mercs do. I mean any strategy is broken on deftech.
Quote
Oh yea, and stealth will really work on that merc railcamping in Pirates on Aquarius when you don't have any other objectives left to do.
Really? because I thought that you only needed 3 out of 5 objectives to win?
I don't mind rail camping because it means that the merc is limited in his ability to cover the map. A merc railcamping pirates means that the fish tank is relatively open, or that maybe i can sneak into greek, or try dropping off the office disk or whatever. And he can't stay on that rail once I start hitting other objectives. He has to move.
I know where a railcamping merc is and what direction he will respond from. So I can easily set up an ambush cam waiting for him if I want to.
I don't feel like railcamping on aqua gives you any special advantage over a merc who doesn't. Aqua is a tough map for spies, that's for sure, but I don't feel like railcamping makes any kind of difference.
QuoteReally? because I thought that you only needed 3 out of 5 objectives to win?
Pirates is at 75%, you're the last guy left, and the only other two objectives left are office disk and tank disk. The only thing between you and a win is a rail-camping merc. I wonder what wins?
QuoteStation sector 2? Just climb the pole to the top, and then drop in to one of the objectives.
Between two mercs, this is impossible to do without being seen. Unless you're talking about the pole behind the mercs, but that's only open if you get the terminal hacks.
Zap merc... Merc goes into convulsions and falls off the rail. Problem solved without having to run up to a merc on a rail and take a swing at his legs only to have him jump on your head. Or taze you, or just simply blast you in the face.
IMO, there are two options:
- have mercs fall off when they stop moving (also turn around) on a rail.
- use the knock-off sticky shocker.
Both are following the KISS way. Easy to understand, easy to use. Good effect.
oh ya...
split jump - yes plz
pre-placed cams - yes
swat turn - no plz
grab on incline - no
grab on rail - no
Gate vault? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WWR2lglY2yQ
It's been implemented in SCDA multi. When a spy climbs up a fence and reaches the top, he jumps off to the other side in gate vault. Love it.
Quote from: frvge on September 06, 2007, 11:29:01 PM
IMO, there are two options:
- have mercs fall off when they stop moving (also turn around) on a rail.
- use the knock-off sticky shocker.
Both are following the KISS way. Easy to understand, easy to use. Good effect.
I like the convulsion de-railing you way, but how do you control which way the merc falls? Making it random would be bad.
He falls in the direction you're shooting.
If he faces north, and you hit him from the south, he'll fall north (opposite of south, doh)
If he faces south (your way), and you hit him from the south, he'll fall north (again opposite of south, doh)
So the opposite side of the way you're shooting him from.
Problem would be that he has to fall side-ways and/or diagonally. But that's fixed if he's just turned (bit like the funny punch) to the side he'll fall down to. Doesn't matter, because he's already shocked, so there's no downside for the little 'cheating' with the programming.
a random direction wouldn't be all that bad. It just makes the rails a that much less favorable location. It's not as if you NEED to be on the rails. By making it random, not only is it a dismount but it makes it a potentially dangerous place for a merc.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of random, just saying maybe it wouldn't be bad all things considered.
That might be the best solution....tazing will nudge the merc off the railing
Grabbing Mercs on Rails is possible...its just easy for Mercs to avoid it. Grabbing from 2 different elevations would make a glitchy looking animation where merc teleports to the same level of the spy. -its why you cant grab on stairs
That's why I said to make new animations for them :).
ANYTHING random in a multiplayer game is bad because it leaves the game up to chance rather than skill. Insta-frags, anyone?
Anyway, SCWorld's idea is best with falling in the direction of the shot. Honestly, the sideways thing doesn't matter -- spy shoots him sideways, he gets to stay on the rail. Spy's fault for sucking.
sometimes the simplest solution is the best and most failsafe. Introducing a new animation for this situation might prove ugly. Namely because this animation should apply to more then just rail camping, it should apply in all situations where spy can grab a mercs foot.
Quote from: frvge on September 06, 2007, 11:29:01 PM
IMO, there are two options:
- have mercs fall off when they stop moving (also turn around) on a rail.
- use the knock-off sticky shocker.
Both are following the KISS way. Easy to understand, easy to use. Good effect.
i like both ideas, but the first is the best as it doesn't affect any other stuff and prohibits railcamping at all.
Really it depends how far the sticky shocker knocks him back. Like if it only knocked the merc back a few inches then it would be good. But if it knocked him back like say as much as an elbow than that might be the wrong answer.
I am really starting to like this idea actually. Imagine shooting a merc and he falls off the ledge, dies because of low health, and neutralizes a merc below him that he fell on :D That would be so cool ;D
I think it will be only 1 step which is enough to get him off the Rail if you shoot from the right angle.
Getting tazed normally paralyzes your entire body and you collapse....so 1 step should be fine.
Here's the question:
How does the shocker discriminate between a merc perched on a rail and a merc on any other surface?
The same way a spy is discriminated between any regular area and a coop move area.
OR make the merc move on step back when shocked, regardless the area he's on.
I am for knocking the merc 1 step back all the time. Only when he's not hit before. (so if you shock 3 times in fast in a row, only the 1st would make the merc step back).
I'm definitely not for that. It will change gameplay drastically in a lot of areas.
Quote from: frvge on September 09, 2007, 07:58:36 PM
I am for knocking the merc 1 step back all the time. Only when he's not hit before. (so if you shock 3 times in fast in a row, only the 1st would make the merc step back).
Yeah, I don't really think that will have too profound an effect on gameplay.
Sure it does. A merc can then be knocked off ANY platform he'd be standing on just by being shocked, whether or not it's a rail. For example, let's say a merc is sniping you in the theater room on Cinema. There is no railing on a part of that ledge. Now you just shock him and run in. I don't think that's very good for gameplay. The merc either has to stand at the edge and risk getting knocked off by nothing more than a shock, or he has to risk getting rail grabbed.
Not only that, SS+cam would become much easier because you're knocking a merc in a specific direction.
the don't stop or change direction fix is clearly superior.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 09, 2007, 08:21:46 PM
I'm definitely not for that. It will change gameplay drastically in a lot of areas.
About the only thing I can think if that would affect game play is knocking him back a step through a door and it closes making him wait for it to open again. and that could be very easily fixed by making the door stay open an extra few seconds. If the merc stands in the doorway he's asking to get trapped on the wrong side for an extra 4 or 5 serconds, he deserves the delay. You would also avoid putting your back to an open edge, not a bad thing. But I see absolutely nothing about it that I feel I could not adapt to very easily as a merc.
There are many places a merc might stand where he has just enough LOS to shoot the spy. By shocking and knocking him back, he has to take a step forward and re-aim where he was because his view will be blocked.
For example, let's say a merc is on the boardwalk between Pirate and Greek. He is shooting at you neutralizing pirate. Now, this merc is already susceptible to cams because he's next to a wall, but under this new system you don't even have to do that: just shock him and he backs up enough where he can't see you. This gets you another 1-2 seconds off the objective than you'd ordinarilly have.
Honestly, rail camping, while gay, isn't that big of an issue as long as the map is made properly. The current maps where railcamping exists aren't imbalanced just because of rail camping, but because of poor design in general. The PS team can easily circumvent this by making sure that there is enough cover for spies and that rails have area above them or behind them so the merc is vulnerable. Plus, the old SS--->smoke ---> chaff usually gets a merc to move off his perch. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary to make a change that would have a universal effect on gameplay to fix a small problem. If they can make the SS "smart" and recognize whether or not the merc is on a rail, great. If not, then they should find another solution such as making a merc grabbable on a rail or having him fall off at a particular time. However, even with the latter you have to find a way to make it "smart," so if you can't do the SS idea you probably can't do the stop moving idea, either.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 10, 2007, 05:34:32 PM
For example, let's say a merc is on the boardwalk between Pirate and Greek. He is shooting at you neutralizing pirate. Now, this merc is already susceptible to cams because he's next to a wall, but under this new system you don't even have to do that: just shock him and he backs up enough where he can't see you. This gets you another 1-2 seconds off the objective than you'd ordinarilly have.
The SS is still going to stun you anyway, so it's not as though anything new is happening. Plus, like the SS works normally you'll only have one shot before the merc becomes immune for a while.
The distance to knock someone off a rail really isn't much. It takes what, maybe 2/10 of a second to traverse? I hardly see how it's going to give him 1-2 seconds off the objective. It'll buy him a marginal fraction of a second, but I don't feel like that will impact gameplay much.
As far as knocking people off other ledges, that could be a valid concern, but I'm thinking that mercs might just adapt and stand closer to the middle of the ledge. The nudge should be very negligible, just small enough to knock a merc off a rail, so if you've got a whole ledge to play with, you should be fine.
How about, instead of rail camping the merc just leans over the fence? Making him immobile and unable to shoot, but still giving him the better viewpoint.
If you do implent rail camping though, you should make it so that not only can the spy pull down the merc, but push him too if coming from the other side.
Quote from: Cyntrox on September 21, 2007, 10:30:03 AM
How about, instead of rail camping the merc just leans over the fence? Making him immobile and unable to shoot, but still giving him the better viewpoint.
I like this leaning over the rail thing but he should be able to shoot or there is no point in doing it. Any way to get the merc closer to the rails because I want more rail grabs but the mercs are too paranoid to go near
any rail.
We are really talking about only 1/2 a footstep, if at all that. It cannot be spammed cuz mercs are invulnerable for a few seconds.
Also, in the example of pirates posted by Spekkio, the Merc would be pushed back along the angle of fire. Not actually forcing him to be pushed around the corner. So there would be no loss of time to recover position. There would have to be a second spy to taze him from a different direction to push him back that 1/2 a foot
And finally, this introduces new stategies to the game, which will force you guys to adapt.
Half a step wouldn't be enough to knock a merc off the tower thingy on Deftech. I doubt that it will matter if you guys design the maps correctly.
What happened to copying CT's gameplay exactly, minus the bugs, and then going from there? You might not even need to make such a change.
IT wouldn't affect gameplay THAT much, it is just a little problem from CT that quite honestly needed to be fixed.
Yes it will. When a merc is running to get an objective, like a bomb or the spy neutralizing, a shock is going to delay him by a second more.
Railcamping can be an issue in some maps. However, I do not support a gameplay change that affects everything just to fix something that is a currently a minor annoyance, and might not even be an issue in PS.
This little step back thingy will only make him take a step back when he is actually shocked. Not when he is hit by a sticky shocker, but when he is hit AND shocked by it. It wouldn't delay him a second more, if at all.
What about this: he moves 1 step back during the shock, and almost immediately afterwards, he does 1 small step forward.
This way, railcamping mercs are still off the rails and normally shooting mercs, are back in their old position.
I still dont think it's a big deal to have them just move back 1 step the width of a rail.
Sure, it wouldn't affect gameplay like people said it would. ::)
Quote from: Gawain on September 09, 2007, 10:15:11 PM
the don't stop or change direction fix is clearly superior.
qfe
Quote from: frvge on September 21, 2007, 09:56:40 PM
I still dont think it's a big deal to have them just move back 1 step the width of a rail.
Yeah nor do I.
It takes a fraction of a second to move forward that rail length.
I'm not sure how Spekkio is getting that it's going to buy a spy an additional second of time by knocking the merc back such a short distance. Sounds like it's just an overreaction. He makes it sound like the merc is flying back halfway across the room or something.
I can certainly see people saying that rail camping isn't that big a deal, but as far as this little change affecting game balance on a larger scale, I really don't think so. It just doesn't take you that long to move that length.
Quote from: frvge on September 21, 2007, 09:56:40 PM
What about this: he moves 1 step back during the shock, and almost immediately afterwards, he does 1 small step forward.
This way, railcamping mercs are still off the rails and normally shooting mercs, are back in their old position.
This is aesthetically stupid.
Quote
I'm not sure how Spekkio is getting that it's going to buy a spy an additional second of time by knocking the merc back such a short distance. Sounds like it's just an overreaction. He makes it sound like the merc is flying back halfway across the room or something.
No, this is a game of close calls. How many times have you won a game at 1 second left? 99%? The slightest thing could make those games go the other way, including that you're being forced to take a step back when shocked.
As far as "the width of a rail," not all rails are created equal. You would have to make the merc back up enough to cover rails that could be thicker than just a couple of pixels.
My point is that there is no reason to universally change gameplay, even if it's small, to fix a specific problem. Particularly not for a specific problem that is extremely minor, if it's even a problem at all.
Yes, but it would solve the problem you have with the 'normal' version.
Spekkio, come on now. Usually when you lose by a fraction of a second it is because either you fall asleep and wake up too late, you get shocked, you get elbowed, you get flashed/smoked, or you weren't covering the right terminal. Not because you were an inch away from shooting the spy.
Here's the deal, who cares if it "aesthetically stupid"? Being able to hang on rails all day is "aethetically stupid", but the point it is that the game isn't based on realism. As I said before, if there is a flying unicorn named charlie that knocks mercs off of rails when they camp them too much if it balances gameplay, then I am all for it. Let's keep it a little more simple, say the merc takes a tiny little step backwards.
Let's hope it doesn't get to flying pink unicorns lol
Apparently Papa Skull was spying on all my games, since he can clearly tell me about my own in-game experience.
Furthermore, avoiding animations that would look extremely awkward and fake is relatively important. Hanging on a rail doesn't look awkward or fake at all. Having your screen oscillate back and forth as merc every time you get shocked would be horrible.
True.
So I presume you prefer the 'dont-stop-or-turn-around-on-rails' option better, if you have to choose?
I prefer leaving it alone until all the other changes are tested out first, and if rail camping is still a problem after that, then address it later.
My main preference would be making it possible to grab a merc while he's standing on a rail. I don't like the stop solution, either, because it likewise would look and feel silly when the player stops moving and randomly starts sliding in a particular direction.
Spy could grab his legs and yank them out far enough that the merc falls catching his neck on the rail. SNAP! Ok... bad idea... The thought just made me laugh when I pictured the merc, arms flailing yanked out horizontal to the ground and dropping to the ground with his head catching on the rail. ;D
IMO, a merc on a rail is almost invincible if he can't be cammed. He sees if you try to grab the rail, he'll probably know when you as spy also move up on the rail.
What about an animation where the Spy pushes the Merc off the rail?
Good lord. Just make it where he moves back a fraction of an inch so this douche bag is happy. Oh yeah, and I am sure a spy will see how stupid the animation looks while he is running from the merc after he shocks him. ::) It won't change gameplay that much, it will just knock the freaking merc off of a rail. It won't delay him seconds like you say it will, maybe a fraction a thousandth of a second.
Plus you will adjust to the distance you are knocked back. You could always shorten the length of time a merc is shocked if you are so worried about the hundredth of a second you are soo worried about. You will adjust to the changes, you adjusted to the changes from PT to CT didn't you? Why wouldn't you adjust to the changes from CT to PS? It isn't that big of a deal, it really isn't. It fixes rail camping, which is a rather big problem.
If you were shocked by a sticky shocker that emits probably thousands of volts of electricity, don't you think you might flinch a little or take a step back? Honestly, it wouln't be aesthetically stupid.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 22, 2007, 06:46:34 PM
My main preference would be making it possible to grab a merc while he's standing on a rail.
That won't work.
The merc will see you real easy because he's overlooking the area. Not to mention the merc could probably just jump off the rail and onto the spies head. It's hard enough to sneak up to railgrab a stationary merc anyway, let alone one who is actually on top of the rail with a better view. railgrab is better as an ambush tactic that you lure the mercs into.
on which maps might railcamping be a problem anyways? warehouse, bank, factory (main hall), ...
most times the map design on such maps sucks in general.
another effect of accessible rails is the possibility to get down quite quickly, museum exhibition for example. imo this adds too much vertical movement speed for the mercs, but it kinda balances out the stupid running-in-circle strats on museum.
I know this is a little off topic, but we are making a whole set of new maps yea? We can really eliminate the maps we already have, or incorporate them later on. This should help the idea of rail-camping move to being obsolete. Why not just not make it a possibility at all? Can you really jump on a rail on a stairway and balance yourself, run around, jump to another rail? Yeah, I'm sure you could, but I bet you would get lit up if there were no walls for you to hold yourself up on. I don't think it should be possible. If we are making a completely new game with the same concepts as CT, why can't we just eliminate it all together. Make the rail an invisible wall or just make the rail too small for a merc to jump on. To allow spies to be able to jump on rails is the next task. I say eliminate merc camping on rails all together if it seems to be a problem right now. Worry about what the spy should be able to do.
Quote from: Gawain on September 22, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
on which maps might railcamping be a problem anyways?
River mall camping the initial rail is pretty good. You can cover the info desk with the sniper rifle and if using MT, pretty much pick up a spy any time he attempts to cross the map, except for that one vent on the first floor. If you have your partner watching that, then you're pretty much set. You can also rail camp on Aqua tech room or pirates, though I don't think it's too overpowering.
Really, though, I don't find rail camping to be a huge problem most of the time. It tends to be more of a deathmatch thing.
And we all know how great this game is for deathmatch...
Yes, River Mall can be an issue, but the part of the map you can railcamp isn't the part of the map where the objectives are. Basically, if you can get to the back then you have such a head start you're almost guarunteed an objective. Seriously, I think the whole rail camping thing needs to go on the back burner unless it becomes an issue in PS. Just don't make maps where you have to run down a long, relatively open corridor to reach objectives and we'll be fine.
Quote from: Westfall-US on September 23, 2007, 08:03:15 AMCan you really jump on a rail on a stairway and balance yourself, run around, jump to another rail?
I know people that can, so then a super-trained secret spy should sure as hell be able to! Besides, it's a question of balance not realism.
can you guys think of alternative moves to replace split jump, back flip, neck break, bullcharge, and beserk?
Our most serious issue is to make this game different enough that it wont violate copyrights.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 24, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
can you guys think of alternative moves to replace split jump, back flip, neck break, bullcharge, and beserk?
Our most serious issue is to make this game different enough that it wont violate copyrights.
Neck break could just be holding a knife to the merc's throat and then slitting it.
Split jump probably doesn't even need to be in the game really. I mean there are so few spots it actually matters, that you may be able to get by just taking it out.
I don't figure that charging is going to get you in too much trouble, I mean a rifle charge is a fairly standard manuever, they shouldn't be able to copyright that. And as for berserk, if you wanted to go high tech, the merc could like electrify his suit or something and send out pulses of energy to shock the spy. Be kinda like a 360 taser or something.
As far as backflip, I doubt they can really put a copyright on basic acrobatic moves.
But really, I don't suspect you'll have copyright problems anyway. I don't think any of those things can actually be copyrighted. As long as you don't actually rip off the graphics from CT, you should be ok (I think). Then again, I'm not really a lawyer.
is it really necessary to change that stuff?? i hope not.
besides, this is a non-commercial mod, so who gives a shit?
Ubi might, if we steal their customers. And I think we should at least use different names for the moves...
And equipping the spy with a knife? I saw we rather use some kind of wire... Then it can be used for strangling too instead of neck break.
How about instead of a neck break, the spy uses his elbow to break the merc's spine? Backflip doesn't have to be changed, it isn't that big of a move for them to actually copyright it. Man I can't think of anything that would replace berserk that would look that different.
How about instead of turning all the way around, the merc would just shoot backwards?
Isnt this getting a bit overcomplicated? Just let them run on the rails and give them a meter which decreases as the move and shoot. They have to stop for it to recharge, and if the meter is empty then they fall.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 24, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
can you guys think of alternative moves to replace split jump, back flip, neck break, bullcharge, and beserk?
Our most serious issue is to make this game different enough that it wont violate copyrights.
If you want to keep the gameplay from CT SvM, then you can't change these. Besides, are you trying to say that Ubisoft copyrighted someone doing a back flip? Come on now. That's like saying Capcom copyrighted someone doing a jump kick with Street Fighter 2, so every fighting game since is in violation.
You guys needs to talk to lawyers because you're seriously getting way too paranoid about this copyright stuff.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 24, 2007, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 24, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
can you guys think of alternative moves to replace split jump, back flip, neck break, bullcharge, and beserk?
Our most serious issue is to make this game different enough that it wont violate copyrights.
If you want to keep the gameplay from CT SvM, then you can't change these. Besides, are you trying to say that Ubisoft copyrighted someone doing a back flip? Come on now.
You guys needs to talk to a lawyer because you're seriously getting way too paranoid about this copyright stuff.
As long as the move performs the same function it won't change the gameplay. The more about this game that is "different" while performing the same function game play wise the less of a case there is for copyright infringement. It is not being paranoid it is being smart.
One that could replace the neck would be to grab the merc from behind wrapping one arm around the neck and placing a foot in the small of the mercs back. You then yank back while kicking your foot out against the small of the back and pushing them onto the ground face first. The hips and legs wind up on the ground but the torso remains vertical held by the arm crooked around the neck. The move separates the lower lumbar from the pelvis breaking the spinal cord. The arm around the neck is for leverage and it keeps the windpipe closed to prevent a scream.
This is a kill sequence I learned in S.C.A.R.S. and there are several hundred variations depending on the circumstances. Most are based on surprise and nuetralizing the foe without alerting others to your presence. Most are designed to go against an armed foe when un-armed as well. If anyone has access to S.C.A.R.S. tapes or anything of that nature I think you'll find it a great resource on killing exactly how a spy would. Quickly, quietly and always brutally effective.
I'd like to mention that now, when youre crouching as a spy and so is merc you cant do anything that could harm him even if you can see his back.
Quote from: neth on September 24, 2007, 07:08:25 PM
I'd like to mention that now, when youre crouching as a spy and so is merc you cant do anything that could harm him even if you can see his back.
Nope, you can grab him as you normally would, or knock him down.
nope, you cant, you would have to stand up to do it.
QuoteOne that could replace the neck would be to grab the merc from behind wrapping one arm around the neck and placing a foot in the small of the mercs back. You then yank back while kicking your foot out against the small of the back and pushing them onto the ground face first. The hips and legs wind up on the ground but the torso remains vertical held by the arm crooked around the neck. The move separates the lower lumbar from the pelvis breaking the spinal cord. The arm around the neck is for leverage and it keeps the windpipe closed to prevent a scream.
You're missing the point. There is only one correct way to snap a neck. Ubisoft didn't make this animation up; they got it from martial arts maneuvers. Are they copyrighted, too? If you are going to change any animations, it should be towards a direction of a more realistic and solid maneuver, ie one that would work in real-life. The stuff you mention might look cool, but it's completely far-fetched, just like when Sam holds a knife to someone's throat by performing an impossible maneuver (it's impossible because you'd have to have cerebral paulsey or something to not get out of it). Of the moves listed, this is the only thing that really has some openness to be improved animation wise, but adding your effects isn't the way to do it.
Likewise, how else are you going to have someone do a charge, split jump or backflip? These maneuvers are in other games prior to splinter cell. I don't see how you can have them done any other way.
Oh wait, in SCCT you can walk. We need to devise another action other than walking because Ubisoft has it copyrighted. Maybe spies should just float using this high-tech boot given to them.
PS will be using their own models, maps, textures, gadget names, gameplay, and maps. Some basic animations, like walking and running, can't be done any differently. Seriously, talk to some lawyers and stop being so fucking paranoid. Yes, it's based off of SCCT/SCPT, but that's if that were copyright infringement then we wouldn't have FPS #5,091,293,193 out because idsoftware would be suing everyone for copying Doom.
I'm not missing the point I understood perfectly. There is no reason not to change it from a neck to something else that fits the game but is not a plain neck twist. Which by the way, when done from the position and in the method the spies do it, requires immense physical strength and absolutely no resistance from the target. More often than not, when attempting to break a neck in this manner you wind up tearing and straining muscles in the neck rather than severing the spinal cord.
As someone who has spent the last 10 years practicing Kajukimbo and S.C.A.R.S. I can say with complete confidence that there is in fact several methods to break a neck. Not to mention innumerable other ways to disable/kill a target and none of those require a weapon other than your own body and the body of the target. Both of these combat systems are design for fast direct debilitation of your target S.C.A.R.S. even more so as it is not a "defense" system or an "art" like Karate and many others. It is a combat system that even the US special ops incorporate into their training. As such, these types of attacks are exactly what a character such as the spy would use.
By saying that there is only one correct way to do a maneuver, that means there is a singular best, efficient option. Sure there are multiple ways to snap a neck, but only one way will be the simplest and most reliable method.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 24, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
By saying that there is only one correct way to do a maneuver, that means there is a singular best, efficient option. Sure there are multiple ways to snap a neck, but only one way will be the simplest and most reliable method.
Though this is off-topic in a sense, that is correct and incorrect. The best most reliable method is completely dependent on your attack vector, posture of target, type of protective gear the target is wearing, what kinds of weapons the target is armed with and more. Now if a grab is only going to be performed from behind then yes, one method would be best for the sake of animation/coding.
A rear naked choke and a knife to the ribs wouldn't be a bad idea either. The choke prevents the screams and if stabbed in the right location the lungs fill with blood in a matter of seconds preventing anything but an unintelligable rather quiet gurgle. Might be kinda creepy to hear your partner's death gurgle through the comms :P
QuoteThe best most reliable method is completely dependent on your attack vector, posture of target, type of protective gear the target is wearing, what kinds of weapons the target is armed with and more.
Of course. But the attack angle and weapon that the merc is holding are always constant.
Keep in mind that the maneuver also has to allow for KOs. Sticking a knife in someone's side doesn't really allow for that.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 24, 2007, 09:43:01 PM
QuoteThe best most reliable method is completely dependent on your attack vector, posture of target, type of protective gear the target is wearing, what kinds of weapons the target is armed with and more.
Of course. But the attack angle and weapon that the merc is holding are always constant.
Keep in mind that the maneuver also has to allow for KOs. Sticking a knife in someone's side doesn't really allow for that.
Sure it does. Bonk him in the noggin or punch him in the back of the neck below the helmet instead of stabbing him.
thanx for the ideas Binary, and if you have links to vids ...all the better.
Spekkio, PS is already banned from the UBI forums, so we at least need to consider having to make more changes.
also, its not 1 or 2 moves that we are taking that cause the copy infringement. Its everything in one package that will sum it up. There have to be enough differances, and the best way to do this,,, is to have all of the CT features, but add our own.
-things like vertical ledge grabs like Colossus
-parallel wall jumps (jumping from wall to wall , ascending or descending)
-different styled visions instead of thermal, use Xray as suggested
-with MT, instead of Red we use a different color (i want to use gold)
-neck breaks can be knife to the throat
Again, its the same functionality...but it does have to be different. If we copied 1 or 2 things it would not matter and never hold up in court...but a lot of things remaining exactly the same is a problem for us.
I would argue that by making those changes, you are no longer keeping the fundamental gameplay of SvM. It will be a new game entirely. If you look at the changelog between PT and CT, the changes are quite minimal. However, the two games play entirely different.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 24, 2007, 11:29:48 PM
I would argue that by making those changes, you are no longer keeping the fundamental gameplay of SvM. It will be a new game entirely. If you look at the changelog between PT and CT, the changes are quite minimal. However, the two games play entirely different.
You talk is if we are taking an existing game and just modifying it. We're not. If you want something the same then go play Chaos Theory, it's the same as... Chaos Theory.
I'm sure everyone is thinking this, but I'll point out the obvious. If I kill you in a game and the method you want to use takes 2 seconds to execute and the alternative method takes 2 seconds... It makes no difference at all.
That's right, it doesn't. But if the method you use to see things is different, then the game is fundamentally changed.
The whole point of this project is to make a SvM game that keeps the core gameplay of PT/CT, but fixes the bugs. The reason for its existance is because Ubisoft changed that with DA, and nobody liked it.
There are obvious issues with that. Jesus fucking christ some people are dense.
Edit: That was uncalled for, sorry, but think about it - look at a few other threads you've been reading.
Just have to wait and see what happens, if they decide not to sue then we dont have much to worry about. If they decide to do so, even if they dont have case, its still a pain in the ass for us.
How much of this community would donate 10-20 bucks for lawyer fees?
If they don't have a case, you can often counter-sue to get your lawyer fees back.
Depends on the country.
And counter-suing also takes money I believe.
Anyway, they'll lose in Holland, they'll probably lose in the USA too. zomg.
*notes he is off-topic*
For other contributions about laws and stuff, please go to SCL or post in AJ's thread.
10-20 bucks for lawyer fees ain't gonna cut unless we get Braiog to be our lawyer and just get him to annoy the crap outta of them.
Braiog does webdevelopment AFAIK. Not law.
Our main problem with copyright infringement right now is that we've made it a stated design goal to try to "clone" the gameplay of CT versus.
That's bad because from the get-go, the purpose of the mod isn't to create a unique game but to copy an existing one. That's going to be very bad for our case if it ever goes to trial. Like... real bad.
No. It's allowed. As long as there's enough difference. Seeing as we're making code, models, textures, maps, sound, music, animations from scratch, I think there's enough difference.
I'm wondering if maybe we should change up the setting a little. For instance, what if we made Project stealth more futuristic looking, like the merc was more of a space marine. We could change his gun to be a laser gun or blaster or something.
CT already had a bunch of future tech anyway: Sticky shocker gun, sticky cams, lasers that can differentiate between friend or foe, camo suit, motion sensor, EMF vision, motion sensors, etc.
This would just take it one step further. We could implement some more futuristic themes to our maps. Perhaps force fields, variant gravity zones, maps set on spaceships, etc.
We could even use it to our advantage to explain some of the illogical things about CT, like how you're given only non-lethal weaponry but still allowed to snap necks. Maybe instead we can just say the merc's body armor has some kind of impenetrable force field that blocks fast moving projectiles and most energy weapons. So the most you can do is stun him with the shock gun. It takes a precise close combat strike to actually penetrate his defenses.
I would get tired of the futuristic setting. It is an interesting idea but sadly I doubt it would work...
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 25, 2007, 05:34:36 AM
what if we made Project stealth more futuristic looking
Maybe its better to make it realistic.
we are NOT changing the characters. They do not violate any copyrights anyways.
The only things that COULD give us trouble are our intentions, and that is not copyright infringement.
So if we intend to tweak the visual appearance, and add additional features then we are fine.
And most of all, TFS Jackie is just the messenger, and the message itself is paranoid nonsense. Investigating, is not an accusation even if it implies it.
K i finally see more light to this and the more i see it .. Look its a mod and you will have those problems.. Perfect Example.. DragonBall-Z , Funimation the company wanted to sue certain people making the same sort of models with the Quake 3 mod and they end up change to different models and then the game didnt feel the same but it had sorta the same concept. .. but Take in Example the Mod , Earth Special forces for half life / counterstrike .. Same models same attacks .. Different name and further more, the Models and textures are all designed by the team, another thing is well going back to splintercell.. I remember when the Unified mapping project was around , i believe it was Iservealot that told me , they called ubisoft up to see if they could change the dimensions of a map soo they could perform a sort of co-op boost, Ubisoft official said they could do it... But they wouldn't recommend doing so..