I was just having a discussion with Mr.Mic about this. I believe the following premises to be true:
1. Camnet and map security cannot be balanced properly while camnet is a selectable gadget. Either camnet is too powerful paired with the map's security, which forces aggro (eg. Factory, Mall, Station), or camnet is a waste and not worth the slot it takes up (eg: Missile Strike, Warehouse, Steel Squat).
*NOTE: It is probably a given that camnet in PS will not have MT/EMF available, but I still believe that this problem will persist.
2. The fact that camnet is just "there" and cannot be disabled while it's being used is lame. Say what you will, but the mercs will always be able to find a relatively safe spot in the map to use this gadget with impunity.
3. Looking through camnet is probably very boring for most players. While I do use camnet because it is an extremely useful tool on many maps, I find that using spy traps and actively seeking spies is much more fun. If spy traps weren't able to be removed by the spy's teammate, I'd probably use them exclusively. If you look at professional reviews of CT's multiplayer, you will see that "downtime" is something that they criticize. Camnet just increases that downtime.
Now, premise number 1 and 2 could possibly be averted by making camnet/camo inherent gadgets. That is why I am for that pairing much moreso than mask/cams, or giving 5 slots outright. But two mercs cycling through camnet is that much more efficient, and premise number 3 is going to always be there, even moreso if camnet becomes a free gadget because the mercs will have to use it to find spies.
Mr.Mic believes that camnet should be removed in favor of a new gadget. While camnet as a freebee might help these problems, I can't say I completely disagree with Mr.Mic.
Discuss.
The question is:
Do Mercs need an omni-present recon device?
If yes, what should be the weaknesses and in what form would it be? You can think of the Flyer Drone fro ETQW. Bit like the drone in SCDA. FLying might be too powerful, so maybe a deployable robot. Which can be shocked to overload/kill it.
I like the robot idea, but make it able to climb walls so you can go into vents to see if spies are there or not. Of course it would have to have a range like 80 ft or so, and not able to go near spy spawns. Possibly giving it a small tazer would be cool, kind of like r2d2 lol...
I still don't like permanet camnet that much, I'd much rather choose my gadget.
cycling through camnet (and especially helping my mate keeping the overview in a fight) is more entertaining for me than running around the map to set up traps. with no visions and camo more present you will also have to scan suspicious areas with flashlight/laser. the only thing i'm worried about is two mercs with camnet so that going aggro on one merc won't help against it. so how about only one merc can take camnet (visible on the model)? how about not giving central camping areas like corridor B with any radio reception? the camnet spots don't have to be that awesome if camnet is on your eq no matter what.
i also like to see more moving cams which can be bypassed by timing.
So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.
I'm not sure how this fits with your points but make switching between cams take a few seconds, alerting the spy and giving him a chance to hide. Non-attentive spies won't be looking at the camera and miss the warning so it won't make camnet completely useless.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:35:19 AM
So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.
i suggested mask+camnet/camo as permanent gadgets in another thread; i simply forgot to add it in this context. with camnet for both mercs being lame, i suggest mask for both and camnet for only one of them.
you can't "disable" camnet diretly, but you can use camo or occupy the merc using it. it should be possible to find the right balance with good map design. maybe the dust of the sticky cam should have less transparancy so that it could be used against camnet, too.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 01:56:07 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:35:19 AM
So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.
i suggested mask+camnet/camo as permanent gadgets in another thread; i simply forgot to add it in this context. with camnet for both mercs being lame, i suggest mask for both and camnet for only one of them.
you can't "disable" camnet diretly, but you can use camo or occupy the merc using it. it should be possible to find the right balance with good map design. maybe the dust of the sticky cam should have less transparancy so that it could be used against camnet, too.
I don't like the idea of forcing mask, and I like the idea of forcing 2 equipment items even less. Like I said, if the merc takes mask and the spies decide not to take smoke/cams, nothing happens. Furthermore, it's not like the spies have a hard counter for masks. Adding camo/camnet has a counter dynamic, but the counters are always going to be there. There's no guessing game before you enter the game on whether or not you're taking the right equip.
a few alternatives:
1. some sort of HB sensor for mercs, obv wouldn't show where the spy is like the spy HB, but would prob work much like in DA, only not all the time...
2. give the mercs the ability to set up perimeter beckons, something like a spy trap set to the other setting (forget the name atm). actually, it would work more like this: each merc gets, let's say, 3 beckons. they would be shaped like little poles, maybe 2 feet high. each beckon will do a cross scan with one another to hone in on a spy. now, whether or not that shows a dot on the HUD, or gives a heart beat, or sets off a sound on the reticle- i don't know. i'm thinking they'll work kind of like how a satellite triangulates a location.
3. allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.
just some food for thought, i hope this doesn't all get over looked :( now, in the words of mike myers
discuss
I think that, like suggested above, you should be able to see through security cameras as well. I also think that there should be some sort of panel that disables cameras, all cameras, not just camnet cameras, for about 1 minute or so. The panel would take about 12 seconds to hack into, but the panel would be in a high risk area, meaning that it isn't that easy for them to get to. This idea would only even be important if camnet were a permanent gadget, like some people are suggesting, which I hope it isn't. But if it is, then there should be some way to be able to disable cameras. Like the already suggested standing on shoulders coop move to disable cameras. It would take like 3 seconds to disable an individual camera.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:07:46 AM
1. Camnet and map security cannot be balanced properly while camnet is a selectable gadget. Either camnet is too powerful paired with the map's security, which forces aggro (eg. Factory, Mall, Station), or camnet is a waste and not worth the slot it takes up (eg: Missile Strike, Warehouse, Steel Squat).
This is true for a lot of CT maps, but not necessarily true for maps in general, I think it's possible to build a map that takes camnet into consideration.
Camnet on river mall might not even be that bad if it wasn't in that hologram room.
Quote
2. The fact that camnet is just "there" and cannot be disabled while it's being used is lame. Say what you will, but the mercs will always be able to find a relatively safe spot in the map to use this gadget with impunity.
I'm not sure exactly how you want to disable camnet. If the spies could shock it with the SS to temporarily knock it out, so it just shows static, I guess that'd be ok. But taking out the camnet is the equivalent of giving away your position to some degree.
Quote
3. Looking through camnet is probably very boring for most players. While I do use camnet because it is an extremely useful tool on many maps, I find that using spy traps and actively seeking spies is much more fun. If spy traps weren't able to be removed by the spy's teammate, I'd probably use them exclusively. If you look at professional reviews of CT's multiplayer, you will see that "downtime" is something that they criticize. Camnet just increases that downtime.
If anything camnet kind of decreases the downtime or at least makes it feel like you can do more than just wander the map haphazardly waiting for spies to appear.
Quote3. allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.
Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 28, 2007, 06:56:26 AM
Quote3. allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.
Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.
the notification and freeze is a stupid idea. valserp summarized it well on sclamers:
QuoteMercs can view regular cameras whenever they wish. They can't move the camera manually, they have to watch the whole left-to-right routine.
Cameras do not activate alarms - they are there simply to give mercs eyes all over the map.
Cameras have a little red light that shows if merc is looking through it.
Spies can shoot cameras out.
the fov should be small enough to allow sneaking past the moving cam with the proper timing.
^flame on homo
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 28, 2007, 06:56:26 AM
Quote3. allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.
Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.
I think this is a poor alternative to camnet. It pretty much takes security cams as a passive defense out of the game.
I don't see how the notification is a stupid idea when a security camera points you out regardless.
Nono...
If the security cams give the mercs an alert and lock objectives anyway, then camnet becomes useless entirely. Why waste a gadget slot on something that the computer is going to do for me anyway?
If the security cams don't give an alert and don't lock objectives, then it effectively takes them out of the game as a passive defense. They're there, but spies can just run around and disregard them entirely. Shooting them out would immediately give away your position, anyway.
maybe we could go without camnet at all and add more moving security cams and motion sensors.
the problem is that on maps of a certain size you can't patrol in some areas since you would leave your objectives uncovered (if you meet a spy he can taze you and run to the objective, especially lame with smoke) or get too far away from your mate if he's being aggroed/ko-ed.
with everyone having camo, darker maps and no visions for camnet it could help balance out maps of an interesting size or no/few good spots for traps.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 06:24:26 PM
maybe we could go without camnet at all and add more moving security cams and motion sensors.
the problem is that on maps of a certain size you can't patrol in some areas since you would leave your objectives uncovered (if you meet a spy he can taze you and run to the objective, especially lame with smoke) or get too far away from your mate if he's being aggroed/ko-ed.
with everyone having camo, darker maps and no visions for camnet it could help balance out maps of an interesting size or no/few good spots for traps.
Well, Mr.Mic thinks camnet should go in favor of another gadget entirely, be it drones or something else not yet thought of.
i actually like the idea of mercs being able to see through security cameras.
These cameras can still be tazed, and spies will be able to see the cone of vision of the camera in NV. Mercs cant control them....but the camera still functions independantly.
Anyone think that there should be little stations or booths that mercs go to so they can look through the cameras? There should be a few of these stations in every map, they make mercs turn their back, and they don't have a security cam watching the panel's area.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 28, 2007, 08:43:33 PM
i actually like the idea of mercs being able to see through security cameras.
These cameras can still be tazed, and spies will be able to see the cone of vision of the camera in NV. Mercs cant control them....but the camera still functions independantly.
I thought about it but what happens when spy shoots the camera? When it gets disabled the merc will too easily know that spy is there. On the other hand it will be more difficult for a spy which is nice but cams positions must be retought.
uh...yeah?
mercs dont need camnet to know that.
Having camnet is the obvious advantage.
They will if you fix the sound.
i don't like the idea of reducing passive security.
gadget idea for replacing camnet:
drone inspired by da
-can't harm the spy,
-can't be disabled
-stays in the air wherever it is when the merc isn't using it
-no visions but very strong spotlight and laser
-quite fast and agile
-can't get into spawn
-maybe range limit; if so with auto-return-to-merc feature
this gadget would allow taking over some patrouling and helps remaining the overview if it's located high in a big room. it would also allow looking for spies in vents.
mercs using passive security makes passive security more effective.
If people really dont like camnet because it takes all the stealth out....then give mercs the ability to see through the standard cameras.
Nobody seems to have a problem with having standard cameras, and a decent merc needs to depend on them.
It gives an authenticity to the cameras as well.
security cams give alert and block objectives in ct; they do this without any effort from the mercs. security cams are not op, so why nerf them? passive security is good for the gameplay, and i'd love to see more bypassable cams and motion sensors you can pass undetected in slow-crouch.
we should really try out the drone idea...
drone is not a "try out" kinda thing with the amount of work involved.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 11:06:52 PM
security cams give alert and block objectives in ct; they do this without any effort from the mercs. security cams are not op, so why nerf them?
I think this is the crux here. By requiring a merc to be actively looking through a security cam and removing the fact that they lock objectives, you are nerfing this piece of passive security dramatically.
I like this idea, it sounds nice
cameras should operate just like they always have, who said they should be operated by mercs?
i am only suggesting that mercs can look through them.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 08:56:34 PM
Anyone think that there should be little stations or booths that mercs go to so they can look through the cameras? There should be a few of these stations in every map, they make mercs turn their back, and they don't have a security cam watching the panel's area.
This is something Noisewater already stated in a previous post on this thread. Good thing you read the thread.
I don't feel mercs should be able to operate them in terms of where they are to be positioned. The cam moves back and forth, so it should be just scanning like it normally does.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 29, 2007, 12:06:52 AM
cameras should operate just like they always have, who said they should be operated by mercs?
i am only suggesting that mercs can look through them.
This is pointless because the computer does it for you just fine.
I still think enabling the mercs to look through normal cameras is a terrible idea. I already explained why.
-It removes a passive security element from the game entirely
-It is pointless to make something manual when the computer does it for you just fine
-If camnet is a selectable gadget, it makes camnet a requirement since you cannot use automated security cameras, and a tedious requirement it is.
-Mercs will instantly know the location of a disabled camera by cycling through camnet
Seriously, looking through regular security cams with no control over their movement would be cool for .02 seconds. After that it would be just a tedious necessity when the automated cams worked just fine. Sitting there while a camera slowly oscillates uncontrollably is freakin boring. Hell, using camnet already when you CAN control it is friggin boring. It's this line of thinking that got camnet put in CT in the first place (there's some post from some PT n00b suggesting that mercs can look through cams somewhere on Ubi.com). While people have mixed feelings about whether camnet should be removed or how it should be "fixed," I don't see anyone saying "omfg this was such a great idea to put in SvM please don't remove it!"
I meant to say " anyone ELSE ". Just a typing error, I did read the thread. By explaining it I was just making sure that the idea was noticed more than it was.
I really am starting to think that we should remove Camnet altogether and put in little security booths.
QFE
i like the idea of replacing the camnet, i dont like it that much anyways. so, i think they should
A) but in the little security booths (making them a prefab/entity. what do they called those things in the unreal editor? i only know Hammer :P)
or
B) replacing them with a brand new, orginal, though-up ourselves gadjet
im in favor of B. more orrginality, and that means it doesnt have to be a complete clone of CT, something different, at least.
I say we make a keycard that allows mercs to access these terminals as an actual gadget replacement to the camnet. The terminals allow mercs to see through different security cams in which they can see through their visions. It would be a change of course, may change gameplay, but it would take it a step forward imo.
we can implement something like security monitors that show stuff in real time and a hologram (river mall any1). but this should only be additionally for some maps, and unless mr. mic comes with an uber-idea i'd suggest going for 1 drone / merc.
I would think you could make the camnet cameras like the security cameras. That is, keep them where they are, but take the camera panning, zooming out of the player's hands and make it fixed. So the river mall camera over lobby for instance would automatically turn back and forth (and you couldn't control it) That way a crafty spy who sees the camera moving might decide to wait until its pointed the other way to get past it.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I would think you could make the camnet cameras like the security cameras. That is, keep them where they are, but take the camera panning, zooming out of the player's hands and make it fixed. So the river mall camera over lobby for instance would automatically turn back and forth (and you couldn't control it) That way a crafty spy who sees the camera moving might decide to wait until its pointed the other way to get past it.
me likes.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I would think you could make the camnet cameras like the security cameras. That is, keep them where they are, but take the camera panning, zooming out of the player's hands and make it fixed. So the river mall camera over lobby for instance would automatically turn back and forth (and you couldn't control it) That way a crafty spy who sees the camera moving might decide to wait until its pointed the other way to get past it.
EDIT: The more and more I think about it, I'm not at all with the idea of seeing through security cams. If you are checking the cams and see a spy, shouldn't the cam go off anyways? Its a waste of time to access the cams because you can already see on your screen where the cam has gone off (unless this is not incorporated in PS). In this sense, camnet cannot be affiliated with security cams.
I say cut camnet and add a new gadget (i.e. drone)
**This is a double post because I we are talking about camnet in 2 sections of the forum.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 29, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
EDIT: The more and more I think about it, I'm not at all with the idea of seeing through security cams. If you are checking the cams and see a spy, shouldn't the cam go off anyways? Its a waste of time to access the cams because you can already see on your screen where the cam has gone off (unless this is not incorporated in PS). In this sense, camnet cannot be affiliated with security cams.
I say cut camnet and add a new gadget (i.e. drone)
**This is a double post because I we are talking about camnet in 2 sections of the forum.
No, it's not seeing through security cams. The camnet cameras remain there. It's just that camnet cameras move like security cameras now (and don't produce automatic alerts). So for instance, the river mall lobby cam would pan from right to left constantly, and camnet would allow you to see what it sees. Camnet would no longer allow you to pan and zoom on your own, nor would the camnet camera give you any warning messages if a spy comes into its viewing cone.
It's not a security cam, it just behaves like one that the merc has to watch himself (but presumably grants a better view of the level).
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 29, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I would think you could make the camnet cameras like the security cameras. That is, keep them where they are, but take the camera panning, zooming out of the player's hands and make it fixed. So the river mall camera over lobby for instance would automatically turn back and forth (and you couldn't control it) That way a crafty spy who sees the camera moving might decide to wait until its pointed the other way to get past it.
EDIT: The more and more I think about it, I'm not at all with the idea of seeing through security cams. If you are checking the cams and see a spy, shouldn't the cam go off anyways? Its a waste of time to access the cams because you can already see on your screen where the cam has gone off (unless this is not incorporated in PS). In this sense, camnet cannot be affiliated with security cams.
I say cut camnet and add a new gadget (i.e. drone)
**This is a double post because I we are talking about camnet in 2 sections of the forum.
ignore what invisible said....
Current Ct cameras have a very short detection radius even if you are in the field of view....being able to look through them yourself would compensate for that.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 30, 2007, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 29, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I would think you could make the camnet cameras like the security cameras. That is, keep them where they are, but take the camera panning, zooming out of the player's hands and make it fixed. So the river mall camera over lobby for instance would automatically turn back and forth (and you couldn't control it) That way a crafty spy who sees the camera moving might decide to wait until its pointed the other way to get past it.
EDIT: The more and more I think about it, I'm not at all with the idea of seeing through security cams. If you are checking the cams and see a spy, shouldn't the cam go off anyways? Its a waste of time to access the cams because you can already see on your screen where the cam has gone off (unless this is not incorporated in PS). In this sense, camnet cannot be affiliated with security cams.
I say cut camnet and add a new gadget (i.e. drone)
**This is a double post because I we are talking about camnet in 2 sections of the forum.
ignore what invisible said....
Current Ct cameras have a very short detection radius even if you are in the field of view....being able to look through them yourself would compensate for that.
I didn't realize the detection radius was so small. Maybe booths where you can look at security cams is a good idea. It won't expose the whole room like camnet nearly does. Maybe there should be no security alerts then in terms of camera detection? There needs to be an adjustment here I feel.
Yeah I suggested that in more detail a few posts up and in another thread I think ;D
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 30, 2007, 03:06:58 AM
Yeah I suggested that in more detail a few posts up and in another thread I think ;D
Like what Noisewater had already stated with just refinements. :o
im grossed out by this Example.. Terrible Example using river.. the best id Say for this is.. well Look at warehouse for example all these years ..ive wondered from pandora , wouldn't it be cool to actually use that monitor station setup, where it only shows a limited site of an area, but ud have to flip threw different monitor views , thus it giving the spy a fair advantage ?
I don't know what you just said.
Having a data center would not be used unless it was on very small maps and was close to objectives because a Merc needs to be on patrol. Bigger maps wont allow for him to cover objectives and manage the securtiy cameras.
Its not about wether the idea is good or not, its wether it will be used as a common tactic.
Here is what I am thinking we can do for camnet.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.securitek.net%2Fusers%2Fwww.securitek.net%2Fupload%2Fcar_good.jpg&hash=5069a2340d65d6342a3fdf2f99838afbb39c9d0d)
Camo should be able to get past this very easily, and being able to taze the camera will also allow for spies to at least hide if not avoid detection.
it still
-doesn't lock objectives,
-closes doors,
-requires no timing skill to sneak past if you got camo,
-doesnt work/give alert on it's own
-can be disabled
sure it does all of those things, why would people think it doesnt?
Ct cams have a limited range of detection - they dont see across the entire room. It was coded like this, so mercs are allowed to see through the cams for this purpose.
I still don't think this sort of function will be particularly useful. I can't think of many, if any, cams in CT where you can pass directly in front of them, but beyond their detection radius. Even if you could, you could just extend the detection radius in PS and make it automatic.
The only use to such a thing is cycling through the cams to see which one was shot out, and I really don't think that the mercs need to have that power. Shooting a camera would be similar to just running through it, since the mercs will know your general location regardless. Part of being a sneaky/careful spy is using your reconnaissance and waiting for mercs to wander far enough away that shooting out a camera/motion sensor/laser cannot be heard enough to give away your exact location. The mercs, in turn, need to use positioning and deduction to guess where the spy is. A camnet that monitors the regular security cameras takes away that aspect of the game entirely.
Camnet needs to be its own entity. If it's going to stay, I think the current implementation as an additional security system with no vision modes/laser is the way to go, and then take it from there. The map makers will just have to be careful about where to place it so that it doesn't have a view of the entire map.
spekkio is right in general but:
"Another possible implementation is giving the mercs 3 (or some number) of cameras in their slot, and they set up camnet themselves. However, then the spy would be able to neutralize them."
this would be too imba
Quote from: neth on October 30, 2007, 01:45:50 PM
spekkio is right in general but:
"Another possible implementation is giving the mercs 3 (or some number) of cameras in their slot, and they set up camnet themselves. However, then the spy would be able to neutralize them."
this would be too imba
this is just stupid. if the spies are able to locate the cams they're absolutely useless (ss instantly), and if they can't they would be op (always assuming reasonable spots).
imo replacing camnet with a drone and adding more passive security is the best way to go.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 30, 2007, 10:19:52 AM
Here is what I am thinking we can do for camnet.
Camo should be able to get past this very easily, and being able to taze the camera will also allow for spies to at least hide if not avoid detection.
Wow. That's really cool.
Though are you planning on giving camnet night vision or what? Since it sort of seems that way based on the pic. That greyscale will get really poor if it can't see in shadows.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 30, 2007, 12:52:57 PM
The only use to such a thing is cycling through the cams to see which one was shot out, and I really don't think that the mercs need to have that power.
Yeah, about the only way I think we might be able to make this work is if we made it so shooting out a camera doesn't cause a security failure. So the only way the merc happens to know a camera got taken out is if it he looks through camnet.
Even still I don't think it'd be a great idea to do the camnet = security cams thing. Nobody would really even want to use camnet.
Quote from: Gawain on October 30, 2007, 04:46:36 PM
Quote from: neth on October 30, 2007, 01:45:50 PM
spekkio is right in general but:
"Another possible implementation is giving the mercs 3 (or some number) of cameras in their slot, and they set up camnet themselves. However, then the spy would be able to neutralize them."
this would be too imba
this is just stupid. if the spies are able to locate the cams they're absolutely useless (ss instantly), and if they can't they would be op (always assuming reasonable spots).
imo replacing camnet with a drone and adding more passive security is the best way to go.
If they shock the cam, then the merc will know that at least one spy is in the vicinity of the placement. By the way, I meant to include a line that the cams would not break entirely, just shut down for however many second a shocked cam shuts down.
However, since I think the best way to go FIRST is to reduce camnet to no visions and just be smart about camnet placement when making maps, I erased that idea entirely. Kebab's idea could work only if camnet was a gimme gadget. I can't imagine sacrificing a slot for such a weak ability. Again though, I think the current camnet with no visions is the best way to try out first.
Baby steps are generally better than redoing something when it might not need to be done.
Why would no one want to use camnet? It is basically the same thing, if not, more useful. You can see if cameras were shut off or not, in which area, which means that there is a spy present. They let you do the same thing as camnet anyways, they let you patrol key areas that you can't easily guard all at once. It lets you locate spies. Just like camnet, just a little different.
nerf net with no visions and dont put in every room! choke points is good enough.
Quote from: seefoo. on October 31, 2007, 05:23:15 AM
nerf net with no visions and dont put in every room! choke points is good enough.
i'd suggest the opposite placement: in no-chokepoint areas as it's already hard to sneak through choke points and thats where the mercs are more likely to be anyways.
example: factory
a) remove camnet from corridors A, B, C
b) remove camnet from main, digger, machine
i think it's obvious that a > b
To expand on that, I'd probably lower the camera in digger so that you can't see the floor on the opposite side of digger. But yea, factory doesn't need cameras in A/B/C...the security cams in those corridors and the fact that the mercs usually patrol there are enough to slow down the spies.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 01:22:52 PM
To expand on that, I'd probably lower the camera in digger so that you can't see the floor on the opposite side of digger. But yea, factory doesn't need cameras in A/B/C...the security cams in those corridors and the fact that the mercs usually patrol there are enough to slow down the spies.
->fix list
Factory won't be in PS. Just thinking out loud about how the positioning of camnet might avert its imbaness.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 06:09:18 PM
Factory won't be in PS. Just thinking out loud about how the positioning of camnet might avert its imbaness.
if the maps won't get ported you can delete the map specific fixes on the fix list.
back on topic: maps on which camnet is implemented in balanced spots:
-club house
to be continued
I already did a few weeks ago.
Either Camnet needs sorted or we need obstacles every so often to hide behind when we're trying to sneak past it. Too often is camnet in a position where its view is almost entirely unobstructed.
Being able to look through a passive defense cam and see past its actual detection radius is in no way detracting from the usefulness or purpose of the cameras. It in fact expands their functionality and not only that but it makes them work just like an actual passive video security system. Alarm goes off, you check the camera that was tripped or one close by in the direction a spy would likely be headed.
It would prove quite useful but not overpowered.
The Drone idea would completely ruin stealth, it's ability to explore vents in particular. This ruins any chance of a spy out smarting his opponent through deception or a diversionary tactic to make him think he has gone elsewhere.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 08:57:10 PM
The Drone idea would completely ruin stealth, it's ability to explore vents in particular. This ruins any chance of a spy out smarting his opponent through deception or a diversionary tactic to make him think he has gone elsewhere.
bs. vents are bad for the gameplay anyways as the mercs have no way of seeing into them / interaction. if you are too bad to stay alive without safe zones, either the map is designed badly or you have a serious lack of skill.
Have you ever played with or against truly good players? I large portion of the tactics they employ involve timing and deception. We are talking about a mod that is much more focused on these aspects of game play than CT. If you don't learn to employ these tactics you stand very little chance at defeating a good team.
QuoteBeing able to look through a passive defense cam and see past its actual detection radius is in no way detracting from the usefulness or purpose of the cameras. It in fact expands their functionality and not only that but it makes them work just like an actual passive video security system. Alarm goes off, you check the camera that was tripped or one close by in the direction a spy would likely be headed.
The latter part is only useful assuming that the camera is the only/last security device in the map. Furthermore, I don't know about you but I don't tend to stay around cameras for long if I trip one.
Almost every security camera points at the floor, and thus sees at its maximum viewing distance anyway. The only exception to this that I can think of are the few cameras that face doorways, but will not go off when you are in the other room (Krauser basement, for example). This makes sense from a balance perspective since you have no way of knowing the camera's position before you open the door.
These will not be CT maps. How the cameras point in CT has absolutely no bearing on this.
If we build cameras that have a motion sensor on them we can easily show the sensor's detection radius in NV which makes a bit more sense than the camera's actual FoV.
No, I don't usually kickit in front of a cam lol
Quote from: Gawain on October 31, 2007, 09:04:44 PM
bs. vents are bad for the gameplay anyways as the mercs have no way of seeing into them / interaction. if you are too bad to stay alive without safe zones, either the map is designed badly or you have a serious lack of skill.
Vents aren't so bad really. The clock is against you as a spy so if you want to hide, I don't see a problem with it.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 31, 2007, 10:08:31 PM
Quote from: Gawain on October 31, 2007, 09:04:44 PM
bs. vents are bad for the gameplay anyways as the mercs have no way of seeing into them / interaction. if you are too bad to stay alive without safe zones, either the map is designed badly or you have a serious lack of skill.
Vents aren't so bad really. The clock is against you as a spy so if you want to hide, I don't see a problem with it.
name one thing vents/safe zones add to the gameplay. with ~3s ss time + flash/smoke there are plenty opportunities to run away/hide for a skilled player on a map with a sufficient amount of obstacles/walls/rooms/shadows. vents are an easy way for map designers to create "stealth" ways or balance merc maps a little bit to the spy side, but surely not the best way. if a merc knows the spies location the merc should be able to chase him (exception: spawn).
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 10:01:24 PM
These will not be CT maps. How the cameras point in CT has absolutely no bearing on this.
Yea, it sorta does. There aren't going to be many wide-open areas where you put a security cam because they simply don't work for the purposes of SvM gameplay. Keep in mind that you would have to put the cam in a place where it can both be close enough to detect a spy AND have a long view to be looked through. Also keep in mind that cam detection radiuses are rather narrow, which is why spies can already pass under security cams that are oriented toward the floor.
I would venture to say that it is physically impossible to orient a camera that would both detect spies at a reasonable range yet allow the mercs to see a broader view, since any camera that is going to detect a spy needs to be relatively close to the ground and oriented toward the ground. If you orient the camera straight, then it will not automatically detect anything because the spy will be beyond the radius once he comes into its viewing angle. If it's oriented toward the ground, then there is no point to look through it because you don't gain any sight advantage.
Kebab's picture example shows exactly that: the person in the viewing angle of the camera, in the SvM environment, would be auto-detected by that camera. Looking through it does not give any sort of sight advantage whatsoever.
Moreover, if/when I make maps (I've been thinking/plotting out one if the game actually comes to fruition), I don't want to have to sit there and orient all the security cameras in a way that gives them a bird's eye view of everything to compensate for the fact that the mercs could look through them. Not to mention that the map I would make in question, which is based off of an actual building, has absolutely no areas where this would be remotely useful. This is what I was talking about when I said that this idea is essentially removing a passive security element from the game.
If you think cams should detect further, great. Then lengthen the distance that trips the security to infinity, and let the map makers orient the security cameras appropriately.
It is much easier from a map design standpoint to put the passive security into the map and then make camnet on top of that. As long as the map makers aren't stupid about it [read: don't do something like put a camnet in a hologram room to instantly let the merc's know the spy's relative position], camnet should be able to be kept under control.
@Gawain: there is nothing wrong with safety vents. Only n00bs run and hide in them for 5 minutes straight.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 09:10:16 PM
Have you ever played with or against truly good players? I large portion of the tactics they employ involve timing and deception. We are talking about a mod that is much more focused on these aspects of game play than CT. If you don't learn to employ these tactics you stand very little chance at defeating a good team.
wtf are you talking about? this has nothing to do with camnet/drones/vents.
put camnet in tha vents so you can see spais coming :D
I think Camnet as a given item is a good idea. Only if we do it the way CCTV works.
Camnet as we know it, is basically teleporting a passive merc to the room. You have visions and a laser and a flashlight, the only thing it doesn't have is the ability to kill the spy. Camnet is a camera that finds passive spies.
With CCTV the cameras are exactly like passive defence camera's. No visions, no lasers or flashlights. They have a limited view and can be set off by a spy. The merc can go into the camnet view and see 6-9 cameras' on screen and can then select which ever cam he wants to see in better detail. I have not decided if 'free cam' (ability to control the camera) should be available. If a camera goes into an alarm state, or shot down or chaffed or whatever, the Merc doesn't know about it unless they go see it in CCTV. Exactly like the movies, if the guard is asleep or distracted the spies are free to do as they please. So you can set off cams but you won't have that horrible feeling of "shit the mercs coming." Now you'd get a worse feeling, you wouldn't know if they are coming or not. Now, you can be cautious or careless.
Hell you can have a security system just like in shemerhorn that disables the Cameras. But then again, you wouldn't know it unless you checked it out. Just like a real security guard with cameras.
Of course, seting up the cams is up to the map designers. I'm sure our designers are competent enough to create something that's not ridiculous or over powering.
The only argument that this may bring up is that it may promote aggro spies. If that's the case just increase the detection range. This would not be a gadget but a standard item that ever merc has. They just need to be aware of the CCTVs. Just like patroling, monitoring CCTV would be a great advantage for the Merc. However due to it's limited ability a spy can stealthfully get by no problem.
Being carless as a merc, means the spy can just run around. Being a good spy makes CCTV practically useless. CCTV finds aggresive spies. It's the opposite of Camnet.
i somehow like the idea of an overview of all cameras with less resolution/detail for each one showing which one got shot out, which one has detected a spy and still locking objectives. if the fov triggering the objective lock is way smaller than what you can see through it (fisheye lense any1?) OR you can move one cam (that are normally moving independently) it could be balanced.
it would take out the guessing game which cam got disabled, but on the other hand i always thought 2 different types of cams are stupid.
anyways, replacing camnet with a drone would work out better.
Quote from: Daybreak on November 01, 2007, 03:54:06 PM
If a camera goes into an alarm state, or shot down or chaffed or whatever, the Merc doesn't know about it unless they go see it in CCTV.
Nah. I don't like this. It doesn't provide any benefit for shooting out a security camera. You might as well just run by it, since the static on the merc's view is just the same as seeing an alert message.
Ya but he wouldn't know about it if he didn't look. So instead of like it is now, a spy shoots out a cam a failure pops up instant. With CCTV I can shoot out a camera, and have the chance that the merc isn't aware of what's happening. It's like putting a mine down, walking away then coming back to see it gone. You know the spy was there, you just don't know how far he got.
I think this possibility is more plausible than the droid.
EDIT: Sorry i mis read what you were saying. I understand what you're saying now. Then the alarmed state would show up as a notice, however shooting one out wouldn't. Thus, a benefit from shooting out a cam. No alarm no notice.
I think Daybreak's idea would certainly add to the suspense. I personally would say that we should add some form of limited observation perhaps. It would give the mercs the ability to look around with the camera and perhaps if a short start-up time was added to the camera that perhaps was indicated by the camera blinking or something you could implement a system where the spies could still avoid a camera if they were careful but if they were not paying attention they could be in an incredibly worse situation then they are now where there are a very limited number of cameras (Or atleast sometimes). Just add in more cameras at certain points but make each one of them very limited in their maximum view area.
Thats just my take on it.
With only 4 gadgets, taking camnet is still a very expensive gadget to take.
I am thinking of the OCP with battery being a good example of disabling security without warnings, which would be a gadget needed for the spy or even freeze the image so mercs dont know it was disabled.
Also, the ability to hack the main lines to individual cameras as being another way of disabling security warnings.
If we did that, we could still maintain the security warnings when spies rush for the sake of speed rather then stealth.
Disabling security without a warning wouldn't be good. While not giving the sound warning would be helpful, not giving any warning whatsoever will make it too hard to guard the maps.
Besides, those changes are quite drastic to the way the game would work. Is that the general direction you're going with this now?
Depends on the map size and layout. A generic warning with no location would probably be wise on most larger maps though. Leave some guesswork, part of what makes the Merc fun to play, figure out what the spies have planned :P
for cam design: the ones in resident evil (and the view through them) look really great.
Are you saying something like cutting a line? Or 'temporarily cutting' a line, like hacking some circuit box?
If there's a way to disable security warnings it should be like a place where one spy has to stand that's on the other side of the level or something similar where he interrupts a security box. As soon as he leaves cams should go back on.
I do agree though that securty warnings are an absolute must.
Clubhouse absolutely relies on the cameras for it to be balanced. It gives fast and easy access to steam-jacuzzi at the cost of requiring to shoot a camera.
But then maps like Orph (all objectives except dorm) and Factory allow for all security to be bypassed with stealth. Its hard, but definately doable, which is why Stealth spies love those maps so much.
and if we do make OCP, instead of disabling the camera, we can just have its movement jammed instead of actually disabling it -which would make it a logical explanation for not giving a security warning and fooling a dull merc into trusting his security to much. Also, the frozen camera would have to give a visible and audio clue to a nearby merc.
The camnet gadget could not locate the disabled camera (its just frozen in place) and spy should then be able to sneak past camera. If merc suspected the camera to be frozen, he could test the movement of the camera. But that takes diligence of the merc, and quite often there is not time for that.
If the camera does not pan-rotate (like in steam-jacuzzi) it might be because of balance and there is no advantage to use OCP...or we make the camera somehow move to a reset position that might allow spy sneak past. Also, perhaps its reasonable to allow merc controlled movement on the stationary cameras.
But standard gameplay should require security warnings.
probably the best change for the gameplay is more bypassable passive defenses (pan-rotating cams, motion sensors that don't detect slow mode movement, lasers you can roll through) + replacing camnet with some kind of drone or leaving it out completely.
and cams that dont detect camo
Quote from: neth on November 02, 2007, 04:14:10 PM
and cams that dont detect camo
could work out with the current 4 slot system, though it takes away some skill...
Quote from: Gawain on November 02, 2007, 12:16:48 PM
probably the best change for the gameplay is more bypassable passive defenses (pan-rotating cams, motion sensors that don't detect slow mode movement, lasers you can roll through) + replacing camnet with some kind of drone or leaving it out completely.
Well, I don't really like completely bypassable defenses too much, because then the merc receives little to no clues against a stealthy spy.
I actually liked PTs set up a bit more where you had a lot of defenses, so when you hear "Security failure" you have to go and manually check a bunch of places. About all I'd ask for is maybe a more silent way of disabling security. Maybe a silencer for the SS or something as a gadget, since it's generally hard not to be heard when you start knocking out defenses. It'd be nice if you could do it silently, and the merc only knew which sensor/camera got knocked out if he went and checked. This only really works when you have a lot of passive security. The main problem with CT was that security was so slim, when you saw a failure you pretty much immediately knew where it was.
Silencer so you dont hear the SS is nice. Only a visible warning is generated but no 'zapped out' sound. So not possible to pinpoint via EAX.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 02, 2007, 05:35:34 PM
It'd be nice if you could do it silently, and the merc only knew which sensor/camera got knocked out if he went and checked. This only really works when you have a lot of passive security. The main problem with CT was that security was so slim, when you saw a failure you pretty much immediately knew where it was.
yeah it's no real guessing game atm on most maps.
why don't you like bypassable passive defences? it takes way more time to get around them (+may make some noise) so the mercs on patrol have a bigger time window to get stealthy spies. it's only bad for camping mercs...
Quote from: frvge on November 02, 2007, 05:38:05 PM
Silencer so you dont hear the SS is nice. Only a visible warning is generated but no 'zapped out' sound. So not possible to pinpoint via EAX.
Perhaps there would be no sound when you take your wpn out
PS. EAX is the worst thing ever happened to this game.
Quote from: Gawain on November 02, 2007, 05:43:26 PM
why don't you like bypassable passive defences? it takes way more time to get around them (+may make some noise) so the mercs on patrol have a bigger time window to get stealthy spies. it's only bad for camping mercs...
Well, as Kebab said, it's a balance issue on a lot of maps. So having generically bypassed defenses could be difficult. Sometimes, you want the defenses set up in such a way that you have to generate a failure warning to bypass that section, so the mercs get a little advanced warning.
Though I do like the idea of camnet letting you pass cameras, I'm not sure about the slow move past presence sensors or always being able to roll through lasers.
I'm not 100% sure it would unbalance anything, but it sounds like a potentially dangerous change.
It really should probably be left in the map maker's hands. Because the passive defenses need to be fine tuned in this game based on the map. Larger maps need more and tighter defenses, while smaller ones probably don't need defenses at all.
I'd like the map maker to have ultimate control over lots of the map variables, stuff like:
-Whether hacking a given security panel (not an objective) produces a "hacking in progress" alert or not.
-Whether disabling a camera produces a "security failure"
-Possibly two types of motion sensors, one that auto detects and another that you can sneak by while going slow.
And so forth.
Quote
PS. EAX is the worst thing ever happened to this game.
Yeah, Lets have EAX die a horrible death. Standard sound for everyone, regardless of what sound card you have.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 02, 2007, 06:14:25 PM
Larger maps need more and tighter defenses, while smaller ones probably don't need defenses at all.
I'd like the map maker to have ultimate control over lots of the map variables, stuff like:
-Whether hacking a given security panel (not an objective) produces a "hacking in progress" alert or not.
-Whether disabling a camera produces a "security failure"
-Possibly two types of motion sensors, one that auto detects and another that you can sneak by while going slow.
And so forth.
well let's see how well the map makers do. i expect great maps from zedblade (and maybe spekkio?) :D
We are forgetting that a security failure, is practically a notice that tells us where the spy is. Most experienced mercs know that a when a failure occurs they know exactly which one it is and a pretty good idea where the spy is located.
The need to depend on a security failure to know where the spy is should not be necessary. Almost 100% of the time a security failure occurs is right before the hack a terminal or attack an objective. So why even have that feature? To alert the merc a split second before hand?
It comes down to map design. A map such as Orphanage or Factory can be made with plenty of Defenses that can be either by passed through stealth. Everymap should be made accordingly. Applying the CCTV system to a map like Factory could prove useful at trying to find the spys who are being sneaky, but unlike CAMNET, which is the all seeing eye in the sky, spies are still trying to avoid detection and can. It is rare that a spy can sneak by CAMNET without being seen. Which is why it's practically way overpowered with someone who can use it. Too many visions, too many options, makes it as I said just another Merc to look out for.
With CCTV, spies are already aware of the threat and can get by with a little sneakyness.
Camnet should have been CCTV. Just not with visions and the ability to shoot them out with a warning for the merc or with OCP and no warning.
Camnet in ct was like uzi, overpowered, not fun to use, not fun to play against. These 2 things simply don't belong to this game. I don't know what you gonna do with camnet, but I'm against making it a free gadget. Forcing you to use gadget that many people hate is stupid. Standing and switching cameras is not what this game is about. Camnet shouldn't be essential, its a gadget you choose to help you find spies or you don't choose. Personally I'm for removing it altogether.
Quote from: kronf on November 02, 2007, 09:49:45 PM
Camnet in ct was like uzi, overpowered, not fun to use, not fun to play against. These 2 things simply don't belong to this game. I don't know what you gonna do with camnet, but I'm against making it a free gadget. Forcing you to use gadget that many people hate is stupid. Standing and switching cameras is not what this game is about. Camnet shouldn't be essential, its a gadget you choose to help you find spies or you don't choose. Personally I'm for removing it altogether.
Well said, but in the absence of a good replacement gadget, the 2nd best option is to take away the specialty visions and be more careful about where camnet goes. The thing is, it's not like the individual merc has a choice where camnet goes like he does with spy traps or mines. The map maker tells him "here's your camnet, take it or leave it."
I do agree that using camnet makes gameplay stale on both ends. Merc hides in obscure corner and flips through cameras until he sees spy. It takes away the whole active hunting part of merc that was in PT/exists for non-camnet users, which in turn makes the mercs much less vulnerable on the whole. But it's damn useful, and the alternative is planting down 3 spy traps that are wasted in the first 30 sec of the game by auto-remove, so I use it.
I still stand by what I said 2-3 pages ago: all this stuff about looking through passive cams and whatnot is terrible. I really cannot express in writing how much I truly hope that this is all just brainstorming and not something that is actually going to be put into the game.
@Daybreak:
Security failures on their own don't give away spies. What makes security failures bad is that you can hear the sticky shocker go off from almost anywhere in the map. That means that even if you don't hear it go off, you will know where the spy is. If PS fixes the sound adequately, I am
against giving the spies a silent way to disable alarms. The fixed sound will add a new depth to stealth gameplay of using recon to make sure a merc is beyond the sound vicinity before shooting stuff out, and giving them an OCP or whatever will just take that depth away.
QuoteThe need to depend on a security failure to know where the spy is should not be necessary. Almost 100% of the time a security failure occurs is right before the hack a terminal or attack an objective. So why even have that feature? To alert the merc a split second before hand?
This is true in quite a few CT maps, but it was not necessarily true in PT maps, which I believe were far superior in design concept.
i dont like camnet much either but if it does stay ingame...
here goes another one of my dumb ideas lols. what if camnet was deployed? mercs have 3 cams or so and can put anywhere. can be disabled and/or chaffed by spies. so ya spies can steal them like spy traps or not. can do long setup time/amount of camnets/duration/ect for balance. oh and fov is limited as well not like ct net where 360 up down all over i see you with my big ass eye camnet so placement is key.
Might work as long as its not a forced gadget.
Quote from: seefoo. on November 02, 2007, 10:23:09 PM
i dont like camnet much either but if it does stay ingame...
here goes another one of my dumb ideas lols. what if camnet was deployed? mercs have 3 cams or so and can put anywhere. can be disabled and/or chaffed by spies. so ya spies can steal them like spy traps or not. can do long setup time/amount of camnets/duration/ect for balance. oh and fov is limited as well not like ct net where 360 up down all over i see you with my big ass eye camnet so placement is key.
This also could work. Also, it works in a balance perspective because if you shoot it somewhere with a bigger view, the spy will have easier access to shooting it out, and it'll give you much less of an idea of where the spy is.
just remove camnet, boost spytraps and see how it turns out.
drones could be a handy tool on big maps (to take over some patrol functions) or maps with a big open room (overview), but aren't (and don't need to) be everywhere on the map. so we can easily add them later without any changes to map design (except spawn embargo).
Quote from: Spekkio on November 02, 2007, 10:06:25 PM
What makes security failures bad is that you can hear the sticky shocker go off from almost anywhere in the map.
I cant hear, I dont use eax
Quote from: neth on November 02, 2007, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on November 02, 2007, 10:06:25 PM
What makes security failures bad is that you can hear the sticky shocker go off from almost anywhere in the map.
I cant hear, I dont use eax
1. so you can't pinpoint the location.
2. who gives a shit if you're using eax?
the idea with the 3 placable and destroyable cams is not really good, but at least better thant the look-through-passive-security-cam bs.
Quote from: Gawain on November 03, 2007, 12:18:09 AM
Quote from: neth on November 02, 2007, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on November 02, 2007, 10:06:25 PM
What makes security failures bad is that you can hear the sticky shocker go off from almost anywhere in the map.
I cant hear, I dont use eax
1. so you can't pinpoint the location.
2. who gives a shit if you're using eax?
the idea with the 3 placable and destroyable cams is not really good, but at least better thant the look-through-passive-security-cam bs.
You always act like a cocky moron i could say same thing: i dont give a shit what u think. smartass
just ignore him ;) Just because you don't reply doesn't mean he somehow "wins" something. He just looks like someone popping off at the mouth to someone who doesn't give a damn about his opinion.
Quote from: Gawain on November 03, 2007, 12:18:09 AM
Quote from: neth on November 02, 2007, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on November 02, 2007, 10:06:25 PM
What makes security failures bad is that you can hear the sticky shocker go off from almost anywhere in the map.
I cant hear, I dont use eax
1. so you can't pinpoint the location.
2. who gives a shit if you're using eax?
the idea with the 3 placable and destroyable cams is not really good, but at least better thant the look-through-passive-security-cam bs.
Because your input has been ever so efficient? Actually, both ideas are quite clever and plausible solutions to camnet. You my friend are just being close-minded on the topic because you have nothing good to offer.
Ok, guys...
How about this as a camnet replacement?
Each merc gets a single remote-viewable camera each that they can place on a wall just like a mine. The view can pivot about 30-45 degrees from it's initial placement angle (this will depend on the direction of the merc placing it on the wall). The camera can also be removed and replaced elsewhere. The spies should probably have the ability to disable it (having the device send back an error alert upon deactivation) until the merc can get back to "repair" it. The disabling would probably involve the spy getting close enough to disable it with his hands, and the same with the merc repairing it.
im liking that. Altough it should ofcourse count as a gadget that would take a slot.
It might be abit to powerfull though, testing would prove that.
Yea, it definitely needs testing cause im afraid it would be too OP if the merc could place it anywhere he wanted. There are always some abusive places on maps and no matter how devs try to get rid of them, they will always be. But I like the idea.
Quote from: Westfall-US on November 03, 2007, 06:31:05 AM
You my friend are just being close-minded on the topic because you have nothing good to offer.
the drone idea is good if implemented the way i suggested and fine tuned via speed, agility, flashlight range etc.
Quote from: MR.Mic on November 03, 2007, 08:55:16 AM
The disabling would probably involve the spy getting close enough to disable it with his hands, and the same with the merc repairing it.
important point for balance.
if it can be removed with ss, you'd need a bigger amount at the same time so that it's as effective and this would result in the godlike eye we have with camnet.
i'm not sure though if the free placement is strong enough to compensate for the small amount.
what do you guys have against an observation drone?
That looks like it is from War of the Worlds or something.....
Mic did you mean place it like manually being forced to place it on a wall with your hands? Or shoot it at the wall?
I also like Mics idea, it is similar to my suggestion of launching a camera.
The only way I foresee it being out of balance is based on the ingenuity of the merc. But ingenuity should be rewarded with success.
A good gadget allows for creative applications, and this is the fun factor of the game. Of course if it grants unfair advantage, then the fun is lost.
Just like Portal, there can be walls where it's impossible to set up mines. Nasy solution, but it works...
Quote from: psyichic on November 03, 2007, 04:04:24 PM
That looks like it is from War of the Worlds or something.....
Mic did you mean place it like manually being forced to place it on a wall with your hands? Or shoot it at the wall?
Quote from: MR.Mic on November 03, 2007, 08:55:16 AMplace on a wall just like a mine.
What if we gave the merc a cam just like the spy cam except it tags the spy for a few moments. Like a spy trap but only half as long.
if i could suggest an idea : "smart pucks"
Smart : able to use logic or sense to perform a function .
Puck : a compact device able to be thrown or handled , to be placed on compatible surfaces . the puck can operate functions .
( just my definitions ) ... i really have no idea exactly this could be used for , but i have a similar idea for the mod i am part of . use your imaginations , you might find something useful .
What's with all the funky ideas? Why not just try a straight up nerf.
No visions on camnet and the camnet cameras move similar to regular security cameras. You just get to see through them, but can't pan or zoom them as you can now. so you can choose to either sneak past em with camo, or possibly wait until they're facing the other direction and run/sneak past.
Quote from: reason3d on November 04, 2007, 03:23:24 AM
if i could suggest an idea : "smart pucks"
Smart : able to use logic or sense to perform a function .
Puck : a compact device able to be thrown or handled , to be placed on compatible surfaces . the puck can operate functions .
( just my definitions ) ... i really have no idea exactly this could be used for , but i have a similar idea for the mod i am part of . use your imaginations , you might find something useful .
All of the other things we were saying as alternatives weren't our imaginations at all..................
after thinking on it for a while, i really don't like the idea of a cam you can't place higher than 1.5m. it seems to similar to sticky cams for me, too. it's power would depend solely on map design, whereas a drone would be similarly powerful on all maps. i can't get what you don't like about the drone idea; there are plenty ways of making drones balanced. if you don't go for drones, plz simpy nerf the existing camnet by removing special visions+laser and boosting camo. a balanced and fun-to-use camnet implementations is possible, take club as an example (though i prefer spytraps for garden).
Placing cams like mines are 100% pointless, too. In order to actually have a vantage point, you need to have the camera reasonably high up to see a significant portion of the map.
Place cameras like flares then...
(sorry if its already suggested ;) )
this introduces the problem of shooting into places they shouldnt be seeing.
cmon guys admit it, 1 observation drone/merc is the superior solution :D
if a drone is too much work for the programmers, removing visions from camnet + proper map design should be sufficient.
I never personally enjoyed camnet that much. It wasn't much fun to use and it was just annoying to be caught by. I never felt it was that powerful, being caught by it didnt usually give that much of an advantage to the mercs unless they were already nearby.
I don't know Xan, I hate being caught by Mercs with camnet. It's like you scan the coridoor with your heartbeat sensor and what not, it's clear so you start moving along the coridoor avoiding cameras and mines. All of a sudden a big yellow eye is staring at you and you feel like you've just wasted your time because the mercs will be on their way to the objectives before you stand a chance of getting to it. It's a problem to me because you spend time and effort evading the mercs but they can just flip through every abusively positioned camera on the map looking for you. I don't think it's even possible to make it to a terminal using a route on Factory that doesn't come into the camnets field of view. I hate nerfing things but it's a pain in the ass the way it is.
despite all that, Camnet is not a be-all end-all tactic. There are certain routes and techiques to bypass camnet in most cases. All except coop in Station and River Mall.
Every route from spies spawn in Factory will lead you past a camnet at some point. The only thing you have is camo which will set off camnets MT unless you move slowly and the camo battery drains to fast to get far enough in most cases. What route/technique can you use to bypass all the camnets in Factory Kebab?
You can go underneath A, but usually there's a merc in Main Hall waiting for the reticle ping in case you're going to digger, so that's not really an option.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 05, 2007, 01:12:19 PM
You can go underneath A, but usually there's a merc in Main Hall waiting for the reticle ping in case you're going to digger, so that's not really an option.
i like this stealth route (for the people who don't know it, it's shown in kronf's video), but you can still be seen for a little time climbing up and entering digger. without good distraction and snares, stealth is totally screwed on factory. if you want to stand a chance against a good team, you have to hack digger to be able to coop in the generator room and unexpectedly knock out the digger merc sooner or later.
Hi everybody ;)
camnet is a good Gadget versus spies but mercenaries can camped a lot a time,a restriction of use camnet is a {re}solution.
It would be necessary to change place camnet on map RIVER MALL for instance.
The camnet number 3 on RIVER MALL is not fair play >:(.
to replace the camnet for another gadget is a bad idea i think.
Maybe spies can slashed(hacked) systeme camnet and to make unavailable for 10 secondes or more. why not ?
PS:My english is not really good
GOOD LUCK FOR THIS NEW MODE ;)
Spies have won regardless of camnet on Factory. Its a big map which is why camnet is so valuable. Camo is fairly effective against camnet on catwalk to machine room. You still have to time your movements.
Dont forget incredibly short 5 sec. hacks on coops and if mercs are caught in a bad position or necked/cammed an objection can be usually taken.
The vent to digger is ridiculous because you make a noise and cant retreat if you use it.
with equally skilled good teams competing on factory, i estimate the winning chances for the spy team <10%. switching to full aggro in digger at the appropriate time is really your only chance. this map has a general layout problem: 3 sniper's paradises connected with 3 bottlenecks. camnet in corridors is just the straw that broke the camel's back. maybe things would look different without the eax bs and camo having some influence on mt + shorter emf range.
Its all about the timing on factory. You can go through A, under A of course, and get into digger. Watch the camnet when you dive in though. Going through the "gooch" as I call it, which connects main with crane, you can hide under the rusted bridge on the hut. Roll to the ground when the camnet isn't on in the room. Of course there is usually some1 sniping that vent anyways. Its always going to be about timing and knowing when you've been seen by camnet to try and create diversions. This is why you have a partner.
I think we still need a better alternative than camnet. While the drone idea is a good idea, there would be things that needed to be fixed on it (since the drone in DA was a POS).
I'm still for security cam viewing. Not overpowering at all and a waste of the mercs time if he is going to go to a booth to check on this.
Maybe just eliminating camnet altogether and not replacing it is a better idea.
If we made it a security booth, then it would have to be specific to a single map and not as a gadget.
Then why not include it in a few maps and just cut camnet?
Quote from: goodkebab on November 05, 2007, 06:09:38 PM
If we made it a security booth, then it would have to be specific to a single map and not as a gadget.
I see that going two ways:
1) the booth is place in an out of the way location so to use if the merc must sacrifice being near objectives, in this case I don't foresee it playing a large part of the game as I'd always rather be near an objective so i'm able to stop it.
2) it's place in a good tactical position, in which case one merc spends all his time in the booth unless he already knows where a spy is.
How about a disadvantage to the booth? I'm thinking this could be a solution: The booth is a closed structure and you have to press a button and wait a few seconds to get the door open. On the side of the booth is a button that a spy can press that would release gas into the room, making the merc fall asleep. That way he would always have to check around, and can't look at the screen all the time. Sounds good?
uhm .. no?
Quote from: Cyntrox on November 06, 2007, 06:36:10 PM
How about a disadvantage to the booth? I'm thinking this could be a solution: The booth is a closed structure and you have to press a button and wait a few seconds to get the door open. On the side of the booth is a button that a spy can press that would release gas into the room, making the merc fall asleep. That way he would always have to check around, and can't look at the screen all the time. Sounds good?
No, cause you cant punish merc only for using his gadget...
But you can stop him from whoring it :P
It's not like it'll stop the merc from going there - only from staying there for a long period.
Plus its the most random thing ever. Unless this "booth" was taken from a German Gas Camp then I can't see why you'd manufacture something with buttons to gas the person using it with.
Quote from: Cyntrox on November 06, 2007, 09:34:44 PM
It's not like it'll stop the merc from going there - only from staying there for a long period.
And what if the merc would just like to use it and the spy was there to release the gas ? Thats not fair.
Quote from: Tidenburg on November 06, 2007, 09:50:30 PM
Plus its the most random thing ever. Unless this "booth" was taken from a German Gas Camp then I can't see why you'd manufacture something with buttons to gas the person using it with.
I think most people agree on gameplay over realism..
Quote from: neth on November 06, 2007, 10:00:01 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on November 06, 2007, 09:34:44 PM
It's not like it'll stop the merc from going there - only from staying there for a long period.
And what if the merc would just like to use it and the spy was there to release the gas ? Thats not fair.
Then it's the mercs fault for not seeing the spy before he went in.
Quote from: Tidenburg on November 06, 2007, 09:50:30 PM
Plus its the most random thing ever. Unless this "booth" was taken from a German Gas Camp then I can't see why you'd manufacture something with buttons to gas the person using it with.
LMAO :D
I cast my lot with the merc usable static camera system. If the mapper implements it properly it will work. Not only will it work but it will work well.
On top of that, it is far more plausible than some electronic eyeball somehow placed 30 meters up a wall.
It provides a camera system that poses a challenge not just in staying out of the detection range but also visual fov. This will not require more stealth but it will certainly encourage it.
Quite a few benefits have been pointed out and the few objections that were more than "I don't like it" were easily dispelled.
We can't please everyone so if you have a grounded objection let's hear it. If you just don't find the idea appealing you have no doubt already informed us.
Let's get some well thought out and detailed feedback on this idea.
there were good points against it...
QuoteIt provides a camera system that poses a challenge not just in staying out of the detection range but also visual fov. This will not require more stealth but it will certainly encourage it.
Quite a few benefits have been pointed out and the few objections that were more than "I don't like it" were easily dispelled.
Lol?!?!
I have made numerous points against this above "I don't like it," and none of them were addressed by anyone anywhere in this thread.
Quote from: Gawain on November 06, 2007, 10:38:56 PM
there were good points against it...
Such as?
Looking through the posts I'm not finding any valid concerns about it without relatively simple solutions.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 06, 2007, 10:56:22 PM
QuoteIt provides a camera system that poses a challenge not just in staying out of the detection range but also visual fov. This will not require more stealth but it will certainly encourage it.
Quite a few benefits have been pointed out and the few objections that were more than "I don't like it" were easily dispelled.
Lol?!?!
I have made numerous points against this above "I don't like it," and none of them were addressed by anyone anywhere in this thread.
Camera's FoV vs detection cone. Not a problem there as the two don't have to be linked.
Camera's preset panning. Doesn't have to be that way, merc could override it.
Basically every objection is based on CT and pretty much moot as a result.
Quote
Looking through the posts I'm not finding any valid concerns about it without relatively simple solutions.
If you're looking for the simplest solution, remove special visions from camnet and work from there. I guaruntee that mappers will use better discretion on where to place the opticals than Ubi did.
Quote
Basically every objection is based on CT and pretty much moot as a result.
Newsflash: the stated goal of this project is to mimic CT's multiplayer gameplay. Therefore, the same rules apply when discussing potential changes.
You obviously fail at reading comprehension because none of your points even address anything I've said.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 06, 2007, 11:14:01 PM
Quote
Basically every objection is based on CT and pretty much moot as a result.
Newsflash: the stated goal of this project is to mimic CT's multiplayer gameplay. Therefore, the same rules apply when discussing potential changes.
You obviously fail at reading comprehension because none of your points even address anything I've said.
Really? Well fuck me running, I had no idea. These assholes lied to me, I thought this was a Romeo and Juliet RPG.
I wasn't addressing your points? Didn't think I said I was... I'll have to go back and check since my reading comp sucks.
If you read those three lines, now read them carefully because we both seem to share this problem, they list a few items that were brought up and perfectly illustrate that they are CT specific.
In order to capture the core game play does not require us to
exactly "clone" an existing game, especially if that game has a mile long list of flaws. Just because an existing game does something a certain way does not mean there is not a better way to do it or that it should be the concrete basis for a judgment call on how something should work.
Everything is being created from the ground up and will be evaluated as we do so. To continue clinging to this 'Oh no, we are "cloning", "mimicing" CT, don't touch that it will alter the game!' mentality leaves no room for improvement where there are clearly a lot of improvements that could be made over CT.
You or anyone else who wants to of course has the choice of doing that. Though you aren't helping to create something that provides not only a similar gaming experience but a BETTER experience not just graphically but in every aspect.
At the same time, we are all fixing bugs seen from PT, CT, and DA (i.e. the fixes list you posted was all from the other games...nothing new). There should be a bunch of new additives to go along with PS. I really don't want to say that PS is going to be a mirror-image of CT because I know it won't be. However, we need to not focus so much on the gameplays from other Splinter Cell games and focus on a revolutionary new way to do this "Spy vs. Merc." New gadgets, new maps, new moves, etc.
And while we are on the topic of camnet, you didn't address what Spekkio was saying. As a matter of fact, I feel an unease throughout the posters because we aren't getting answers. A lot of this might be mindless babble because the programmers don't have to pay attention to anything posted here. This is cause for a loss of support.
Allowing/making the mercs look through security cameras isn't new, so you guys can stop talking about it like you came up with, and are trying to incorporate, something original. It's a bastardization of two already existing concepts, one of which works perfectly well and one of which just needs tweaking, merged into one complete pile of shit. While we're at it, why don't you combine motion sensors with lazers? Oh, and add a "lasernet" gadget so that the mercs have to manually trigger the lasers to detect the spy. I'm sure that'll really help improve things.
I'm all for new content, so long as the idea doesn't suck and won't break something that already works perfectly fine. But nobody here, except for Gawain the broken "let's remove camnet and add drones" record, is talking about adding anything new; you're simply talking about making sweeping changes to a gadget, ranging from looking through security cams to security booths, that most likely will not be necessary. To be honest, I would rather eliminate camnet entirely in favor of a new gadget because I think any sort of device that requires/enables you to hide in a corner and just wait for a spy to appear makes gameplay stale even if it weren't over-powered, but no one on these forums has proposed anything remotely feesible (I am guilty of that as well). A recent poll on SCLamers shows that most people still playing the game generally dislike the concept of camnet altogether as well. Mercs should be out patrolling and hunting, not standing in a corner or in a booth waiting for the spies to cross the path of a camera. Focus on improving the parts of PT/CT/DA that don't work (camnet), and leave the parts that do (security cams) alone. Anyway, have fun digging through 12 pages to find my multiple detailed explanations of why the idea sucks, I'm too lazy to re-type it all.
I did look through the past 11 pages and to be completely blunt - every thing you have against this idea amounts to nothing in workability, balance and usefulness. Your posts clearly indicate you simply don't like the idea and that's about it. You obviously put no thought into fixing or circumventing the elements you don't like or you are making the assumption we are stupid enough to toss some half-assed idea in without thinking about these things.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 11:52:18 PMI think this is the crux here. By requiring a merc to be actively looking through a security cam and removing the fact that they lock objectives, you are nerfing this piece of passive security dramatically.
Why get rid of the objective lock? No reason to therefor it's not nerfing the cameras at all.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 29, 2007, 01:22:45 AMThis is pointless because the computer does it for you just fine.
I still think enabling the mercs to look through normal cameras is a terrible idea. I already explained why.
-It removes a passive security element from the game entirely
-It is pointless to make something manual when the computer does it for you just fine
-If camnet is a selectable gadget, it makes camnet a requirement since you cannot use automated security cameras, and a tedious requirement it is.
-Mercs will instantly know the location of a disabled camera by cycling through camnet
Seriously, looking through regular security cams with no control over their movement would be cool for .02 seconds. After that it would be just a tedious necessity when the automated cams worked just fine. Sitting there while a camera slowly oscillates uncontrollably is freakin boring. Hell, using camnet already when you CAN control it is friggin boring. It's this line of thinking that got camnet put in CT in the first place (there's some post from some PT n00b suggesting that mercs can look through cams somewhere on Ubi.com). While people have mixed feelings about whether camnet should be removed or how it should be "fixed," I don't see anyone saying "omfg this was such a great idea to put in SvM please don't remove it!"
Quote from: Spekkio on October 30, 2007, 12:52:57 PM
I still don't think this sort of function will be particularly useful. I can't think of many, if any, cams in CT where you can pass directly in front of them, but beyond their detection radius. Even if you could, you could just extend the detection radius in PS and make it automatic.
The only use to such a thing is cycling through the cams to see which one was shot out, and I really don't think that the mercs need to have that power. Shooting a camera would be similar to just running through it, since the mercs will know your general location regardless. Part of being a sneaky/careful spy is using your reconnaissance and waiting for mercs to wander far enough away that shooting out a camera/motion sensor/laser cannot be heard enough to give away your exact location. The mercs, in turn, need to use positioning and deduction to guess where the spy is. A camnet that monitors the regular security cameras takes away that aspect of the game entirely.
Camnet needs to be its own entity. If it's going to stay, I think the current implementation as an additional security system with no vision modes/laser is the way to go, and then take it from there. The map makers will just have to be careful about where to place it so that it doesn't have a view of the entire map.
It is neither pointless nor does the camera have to be uncontrollable by the merc. If it was, then yeah it would make it almost useless. It does not remove any passive security element, it just means the merc can make use of them just the same way any security force would in real life. If a merc can determine where you are because a camera was shot out then the spy should have sneaked by rather than shot the cam. If you can't sneak by then the camera has been made that way for a good reason and seeing a security failure a merc would pretty much know it's that particular cam without checking the network. Any other cam a smart spy would have bypassed without tripping or shooting it.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 09:57:33 PM
QuoteBeing able to look through a passive defense cam and see past its actual detection radius is in no way detracting from the usefulness or purpose of the cameras. It in fact expands their functionality and not only that but it makes them work just like an actual passive video security system. Alarm goes off, you check the camera that was tripped or one close by in the direction a spy would likely be headed.
The latter part is only useful assuming that the camera is the only/last security device in the map. Furthermore, I don't know about you but I don't tend to stay around cameras for long if I trip one.
Almost every security camera points at the floor, and thus sees at its maximum viewing distance anyway. The only exception to this that I can think of are the few cameras that face doorways, but will not go off when you are in the other room (Krauser basement, for example). This makes sense from a balance perspective since you have no way of knowing the camera's position before you open the door.
Camera angles and detection cones don't have to be linked in any way. Just like a merc will know what area a spy is in by finding a downed camera, he is of course going to know when you trip it. Now, if you know a merc can find a camera that has been shot, you wouldn't stick around any longer than you would when it is tripped. In either situation a merc is going to have an idea of where you're headed based on the objectives remaining blah blah etc so knowing that, he can check other cameras in the vicinity where you might have headed to verify the direction and intercept or pass the info to the other merc. It could also be used against a merc to make him think you are headed a certain way based on the camera that is out etc.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 10:23:32 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 10:01:24 PM
These will not be CT maps. How the cameras point in CT has absolutely no bearing on this.
Yea, it sorta does. There aren't going to be many wide-open areas where you put a security cam because they simply don't work for the purposes of SvM gameplay. Keep in mind that you would have to put the cam in a place where it can both be close enough to detect a spy AND have a long view to be looked through. Also keep in mind that cam detection radiuses are rather narrow, which is why spies can already pass under security cams that are oriented toward the floor.
I would venture to say that it is physically impossible to orient a camera that would both detect spies at a reasonable range yet allow the mercs to see a broader view, since any camera that is going to detect a spy needs to be relatively close to the ground and oriented toward the ground. If you orient the camera straight, then it will not automatically detect anything because the spy will be beyond the radius once he comes into its viewing angle. If it's oriented toward the ground, then there is no point to look through it because you don't gain any sight advantage.
Like I said before - the detection cone and the FoV don't have to be linked at all.
Red FTW!
Guys, literally the only use for this new camnet is detecting which camera got knocked out after a security failure.
The "camera has a slightly bigger FoV than its detection cone" is crap. It means you take a new gadget just to see slightly farther on your cameras. Nobody wants that. That sucks. About all your camnet will do is make it so that you cant shoot out a camera without instantly giving away your position to the merc.
Merc hears secruity failure, he flicks through to find the static camera. Thats all it does.
Camnet only works well now because it is an eye in the sky. If it was just in a normal security camera position, it would suck. You cant really elevate existing security cams either because that would make the detection cones too difficult to discern
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 07, 2007, 03:02:40 AM
Guys, literally the only use for this new camnet is detecting which camera got knocked out after a security failure.
The "camera has a slightly bigger FoV than its detection cone" is crap. It means you take a new gadget just to see slightly farther on your cameras. Nobody wants that. That sucks. About all your camnet will do is make it so that you cant shoot out a camera without instantly giving away your position to the merc.
Merc hears secruity failure, he flicks through to find the static camera. Thats all it does.
Camnet only works well now because it is an eye in the sky. If it was just in a normal security camera position, it would suck. You cant really elevate existing security cams either because that would make the detection cones too difficult to discern
It's not often you and I see 100% eye-to-eye on something.
Moreover, from a balance perspective it is not good to allow mercs to know what security got shot out from a gadget. Doing so already creates noise and gives your position away if you're not careful.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 07, 2007, 03:02:40 AMCamnet only works well now because it is an eye in the sky. If it was just in a normal security camera position, it would suck. You cant really elevate existing security cams either because that would make the detection cones too difficult to discern
If you have a large room, let's use the main hall in Factory, place a security cam 6-8 feet above both of the doors and a third a few feet above the hall into Digger.
Now put motion detectors on the cameras and aim them down to detect encroachment on the area right in front of the doors and at the hall entry leaving just enough room to slip around the detection field on the right and left side when the camera pans the opposite way. Perhaps even make it so they have to crouch when slipping around to avoid detection.
You now have 3 cameras covering the area that provide a good view leaving enough blind spots to be avoided by a stealthy player.
Any spy attempting to quickly move through the room can now be tracked from one end to the other without creating any one cam with the "eye in the sky" position and leaving several blind spots for the Spy to try and lose his tracker.
I know 3 cams is a lot for 1 room, even one of this size, but hopefully it illustrates how well this could be made to work.
The control scheme for the cameras could function on a whole new but intuitive control scheme
Just a quick example of one that might work would be as follows -
1. Break the level up into Zones containing 1 or more cameras
2. Merc can "Tab" through zones landing on a specific camera in each Zone
3. After tabbing into a Zone you can then rotate through the cameras in that Zone
4. If a camera has been tripped in a Zone and you access that Zone's root camera tabbing through you will see a visual indicator that the alarm is in that Zone.
This would keep the interface streamlined and easy to use. When possible the root camera would be one with an optimal view of the Zone.
It would keep the controls down to 2 buttons and once you were familiar with the map it would be a simple matter of knowing tab through 2 zones and 1 camera I.E. Press Tab, Tab, RMB.
Not perfect but Hopefully gets the idea across.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 07, 2007, 04:00:03 AM
Moreover, from a balance perspective it is not good to allow mercs to know what security got shot out from a gadget. Doing so already creates noise and gives your position away if you're not careful.
Not to mention that shooting out a camera becomes absolutely pointless unless the camera locks down objectives. The whole point of shooting the camera is to prevent mercs from immediately knowing where you are. If you wanted mercs to know your position, you could just run through the camera and take up less time.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 07, 2007, 12:53:36 AM
I'm all for new content, so long as the idea doesn't suck and won't break something that already works perfectly fine.
Well as you could notice, there were several new ideas of gadgets in general but every single one of them was flamed by the community who thinks that everything works fine and the only work that has to be done is to remove bugs...Binary is right, its the "Dont touch it, you will ruin everything" syndrome.
or its the "don't fix what ain't broken" thought....
We have been talking about what to do with camnet. So far, there are a few options:
-remove camnet
-create security booths (which entail the use of security cameras)
-remove camnet, incorporate drone
This BS has gone on for 12 pages and we have no decision yet. Can the devs just make something final here so we can move on to other topics?
Let me try to make sense of the last 12 pages...
The main points are:
- No Camnet in favour of other gadgets but we don't have many ideas that would make nice additions to the Mercs arsenal. People have suggested drones which work fine on DA scale maps but in CT scale maps they'd chase spies for miles through vents and probably create some spawn killing oppertunities.
- Change Camnet either by making security booths or integrate them to view through passive defences.
- If spies can bypass them as easy as normal passive cameras then it'd be a pointless gadget.
- If you could manually move them they'd be just as bad as the old camnet since you can just see
which camera was shot out and head there.
- If it's on a fixed motion from left to right, then spies would still be able to avoid it making it near useless yet again.
- If we leave Camnet in, remove MT and EMF and be sure Camnet locations on maps are carefully and
fairly positioned people would be alright with this.
So it seems to me the only options for Camnet surviving are to nerf Camnet and see how it fares afterward or there needs to be some way to limit and restrict access to Camnet. Something to make sure they can't stay on it forever, flipping through every camera on the map or using Camnet will leave them in a very vulnerable state(Something like can't back to wall, shocking/jumping/camming them using Camnet gives some kind of penalties). Yet at the same time the gadget needs to be useful and reliable enough to be worth taking as a gadget in favour of other good Merc gadgets.
- If camo is more useful and it makes getting past Camnet not such a chore then it may not need to be nerfed so badly. Camo could probably solve alot of problems, especially if you can hang and drop off ledges without the damn thing turning itself off. A little problem with camo is you can't tell if the other team take Camnet so you can take Camo, but that's assuming the only use of camo is to counter Camnet(which it isn't).
So in summary, either Camnet stays but it needs to be nerfed, restricted or the mercs need to be more vulnerable while using it. Camo could be the counter to Camnet and if it's better than the CT camo it may well end up that way. People are both for and against integrating it into the passive security cameras on the map. Did I get it right?
QuoteYou now have 3 cameras covering the area that provide a good view leaving enough blind spots to be avoided by a stealthy player.
Any spy attempting to quickly move through the room can now be tracked from one end to the other without creating any one cam with the "eye in the sky" position and leaving several blind spots for the Spy to try and lose his tracker.
I know 3 cams is a lot for 1 room, even one of this size, but hopefully it illustrates how well this could be made to work.
First, you have to have spots where there is little or no security. Forcing the spies to crawl around all the time just won't work.
Secondly, it doesn't matter if the spy can disappear into blind spots; he only needs to be seen once on one of the cameras. On a lot of the maps where I use camnet, I don't even move the damn things because of this. I just orient them in a way where he will take a significant time to traverse the cam's FOV, giving me adequate time to flip through the camera and ultimately find him. If he's moving, it's not difficult at all to deduct where he's heading.
Thirdly, again you're trying to force a bad idea to work when the simplest solution is to remove camnet's visions and place them more carefully throughout the map.
Sithduke summed everything up nicely.
QuoteSo in summary, either Camnet stays but it needs to be nerfed, restricted or the mercs need to be more vulnerable while using it. Camo could be the counter to Camnet and if it's better than the CT camo it may well end up that way. People are both for and against integrating it into the passive security cameras on the map. Did I get it right?
Well, if removing the visions isn't enough, the next option is that you could allow the spies to shoot camnet eyes out with the sticky shocker. It would disable the camera for like 30 seconds, but obviously the merc would know exactly where you were. I still don't think this would be necessary, though, so long as you didn't put the camnet lenses in spots that see the whole room.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 07, 2007, 04:45:43 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on November 07, 2007, 04:00:03 AM
Moreover, from a balance perspective it is not good to allow mercs to know what security got shot out from a gadget. Doing so already creates noise and gives your position away if you're not careful.
Not to mention that shooting out a camera becomes absolutely pointless unless the camera locks down objectives. The whole point of shooting the camera is to prevent mercs from immediately knowing where you are. If you wanted mercs to know your position, you could just run through the camera and take up less time.
QFT
Quote from: SITHDUKE on November 07, 2007, 09:07:01 AM
People have suggested drones which work fine on DA scale maps but in CT scale maps they'd chase spies for miles through vents and probably create some spawn killing oppertunities.
i'm aware that my drone-related posts get annoying, but i was talking about passive observation drones that can't enter the spawn. in scda they didn't play that much of an observation/patroulling part because they had no hold-position function and were really slow.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 07, 2007, 01:31:35 PM
Thirdly, again you're trying to force a bad idea to work when the simplest solution is to remove camnet's visions and place them more carefully throughout the map.
...
Well, if removing the visions isn't enough, the next option is that you could allow the spies to shoot camnet eyes out with the sticky shocker. It would disable the camera for like 30 seconds, but obviously the merc would know exactly where you were. I still don't think this would be necessary, though, so long as you didn't put the camnet lenses in spots that see the whole room.
...
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 07, 2007, 04:45:43 AM
Not to mention that shooting out a camera becomes absolutely pointless unless the camera locks down objectives. The whole point of shooting the camera is to prevent mercs from immediately knowing where you are. If you wanted mercs to know your position, you could just run through the camera and take up less time.
i approve except for one point: deactivating camnet with ss in a large room would be totally op. it could work with lot's of cams in in small-medium rooms, but in a big room like digger/main/garden/etc there are way too much options the spy could be/go so that the merc can't make any conclusion.
a general problem is that by hunting the spies you leave the objectives and if they switch to aggro once you found them you are screwed. ways to avoid this problem with proper map design:
-as few central camping spots as possible
-higher hacking timers
-more objectives throughout the whole map
-not too much camnet in zones away from the objectives
(-chaff not working through walls => slow down effect of mines)
Perhaps do a poll to see who would like camnet removed, who would like it changed and who would like the basic idea to remain the same.
After all if most people would prefer something else in the place of camnet it would be an awful waste of effort implementing it.
What about the following idea:
Mercs can have a gadget that plugs into several terminals around the map. He is now able to watch/cycle through camnet.
Positive:
- limited places a Merc using camnet can be => easier target for grabs => probably less whoring.
- we can make it so that only 1 merc can view camnet at a time
- we can make it so that accessing and exiting the camnet system takes some time => visible clue for Spies to hide or to strike.
- Terminal placement can be balanced.
Neutral:
- May or may NOT take up a gadget slot.
Negative:
- ?
Pros:
Some mobility and freedom while using Camnet
Cons:
Left rather vulnerable to cams and grabs
If Camnet is stripped of visions and laser while camo gets buffed to counter Camnet it could be boardering on flares for usefulness. It will have to be done carefully. Remember the idea is not to punish a merc for using his gadgets it should be a risk Vs. reward.
Hackable cage for Spies (6 seconds?), which is silent. Sticky Cams dont penetrate the cage.
'Aggroing' a Camnetting Merc takes time, but it also takes time for the Merc to go into and out of camnet.
Quotea general problem is that by hunting the spies you leave the objectives and if they switch to aggro once you found them you are screwed. ways to avoid this problem with proper map design:
Well, that's the game. If the spy gets away, you should've killed him quicker. It's not like using camnet prevents the same thing. At least when the mercs have to use a patrol route, they open themselves up to being vulnerable and make the game move.
Unfortunately the meta-game has a lot of running around these days because of a general lack of passive security on a lot of maps. Oftentimes you can just bypass everything with just 1-2 chaffs. Camnet on some maps only encourages this because you have to keep the mercs moving, or else they just keep watching you.
Again, I'm generally of the opinion that passive defenses ought to be left up to the computer -- that includes cameras, lasers, etc. Yes, you can place mines and spytraps, but once you do the computer handles the detection part. That is mainly why I think camnet ought to be replaced by something different entirely, but it's also a large reason why I think that integrating camnet with security cameras is an absolutely horrible idea. Manual-izing (if that's a word) security cameras will not add to gameplay at all; it will simply detract from it because the player is doing something that the computer could do just fine. B1nary wrote a post that basically repeated "but the detection/viewing radius doesn't have to be the same" three times. Well, then why not just alter the detection radius and be done with it? There's absolutely no benefit to allowing the mercs to look through security cameras except to know instantly which one got shot out. As Invisible pointed out, that will just make people run through them and not bother, the same way that spies tend to start running around when they see that mercs have camnet now.
@Xan: camnet poll
http://sclamers.17.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1473
[19:32] frvge: Merc wants camnet -> merc wants to terminal and presses RMB to use -> cage closes -> merc in camnet
[19:33] frvge: merc exists camnet -> -> cage protected by forcefield (anti-jump protection, also disables the Spy hack) cage unlocks -> merc walks out safely
[19:33] frvge: if there's a Spy wanting to grab the camnetting merc:
[19:33] frvge: spy sees merc enter cage
[19:33] frvge: (stupid merc! kill spy first!)
[19:33] frvge: spy hacks cage, cage opens, spy grabs merc
Or make camnet not work in the area the camnetting merc is - say the Cameras are used as links to the camnet.
Also an option.
I think the addition of a third party is good. It doesn't directly interfere with the camnet, nor the merc nor the spy. It can add extra rules for hacking/grabbing and stuff. These rules can be used to fine-tune and balance the game.
Here's my list of camnet nerfs. In progressive stages:
Stage 1: Remove camnet visions. Possibly give camnet a new blurred filter to see through
Stage 2: Remove camnet zoom/laser. Include delay for activating camnet, perhaps it takes 1 second or so to establish a connection. So you can't quickly flip through cameras without taking at least a second of dead time to activate the device.
Stage 3: Make panning for camnet cameras automatic instead of player controlled.
I'd like some more input on my idea (http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php/topic,503.msg11695.html#msg11695) and the posts after it, please.
Ive already said that i'd prefer getting rid of this gadget entirely but heres what i think about frvge's idea:
1. There could be terminals partially built into walls (like banking machines ?) but not secured anyhow and that means no damn booths, back must remain uncovered while using.
2. If this exists it must take a slot - I like the Idea with card accessing terminals
3. accesing terminal should take a while - perhaps a loading screen visible by merc taking like 3 - 4 sec
4. When the camnet is loading it should show that - I like the idea that the cam blinks during loading time so the spy can react somehow and perhaps hide.
5. Visions - No EMF but MT is ok in case it does not detect camo at all.
6. Positions must be balanced and thats the hardest work to do.
7. Terminals and cams must look pro.
If it is done like this I may even like the idea.
Wow. Neth you want to totally nerf the hell out of camnet. A 4 second load time? wtf? That's like forever in this game.
ok maybe 4 is too much but 2-3 is ok
the problem with camnet is not the ability to use it wherever you are, but camping with it close to the objectives and still seeing the important stuff going on at the other end of the map. i think this problem could be solved by clever camnet positioning / obstacles / lightning in fov of cam. some examples:
-factory: remove it from corridors on factory and add more shadows in main hall/obstacle
-museum: way more shadows needed, maybe camnet on cafe inside side should face in the other direction
-polar: camnet shouldn't be able to watch spawn, eg obstacles in the higher fov
-river mall: remove camnet in hologram room
etc
this+better camo+no special visions make camnet make it even harder to master and allow sneaking past it.
hmm, i want to ask about visions and camo.
Do you guys think that camo should be detected by MT even when spy is moving ?
My opinion is - no, cause I see no reason why MT should detect something which is detectable by 2nd vision.
If it was like that, it would also be a small step forward to prevent vision whoring.
It could work like "rock>scissors> paper" system and here that means: EMF>camo>MT. Makes sense ?
When its done like that, camnet could use MT cause there would be an effective counter - camo.
It would be like this then: camo>camnet MT>no camo running. Ofc in this case camnet would have no EMF and thats quite fair i guess. Its also a way not to nerf camnet too much - it could be a counter for aggroing spies. Aggroing spies can be seen by camnet without MT, so I see no reason why it cant be boosted a little.
Whats your opinion ?
I think this was brought up somewhere else, but I don't remember. Maybe look around the forum a bit more?
Here's my amazing nurf! Normal camnet, with a loading bar whilst they activate, then the spies can hack a main terminal somewhere which displays on the mercs screen then it take 15 seconds to be reactivated!
YEY NURFS! :D
so what's the result of this thread?
summed up most (=>poll on sclamers) vets want camnet to stay, but without special visions and better map design.
Quote from: Gawain on November 15, 2007, 02:20:26 PM
so what's the result of this thread?
summed up most (=>poll on sclamers) vets want camnet to stay, but without special visions and better map design.
Don't think they are going to base it off of polls.
well i guess polls are the way the devs decide this kind of stuff without someone responsible for balance questions...
Quote from: Gawain on November 15, 2007, 10:43:19 PM
well i guess polls are the way the devs decide this kind of stuff without someone responsible for balance questions...
Not likely. They don't have to use anything we post. They could already have a diff type of camnet.
No matter what they do, it can always be changed during betas
i thought of a dev-only poll lolz
heh