Possible Sound Reticule for Spies? New heartbeat suggestions?

[Farley4Fan]

Why?  If you don't choose a gadget, you shouldn't get it.  4 gadget choices, why more?

[Gawain]

spekkio explained it sufficiently

[Westfall]

spekkio explained it sufficiently

Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.

[Farley4Fan]

More =/= better

The only exception to that rule is having more choices for those 4 gadget slots.  In that case, more = better  Seriously, why not make PS2 have 6 gadget slots then?  You don't have to increase it.  I don't see a real benefit to the gameplay because of this.  This might be balanced out if you can only carry like 3 of each gadget.  And that's kind of dumb imo.

[BurningDeath]

the 5 / 1 permanent gadget slot idea is actually one of the few suggestions worth trying.

Why do your posts always sound like "I are god, I speak true" ?

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Well, i agree with 5/1 gadgets, IF it counts the ss/ glove as the predefined ones.

[Farley4Fan]

That's actually a good suggestion koka.  I would like the glove.  Just not the f'd up one from DA.

[Spekkio]

spekkio explained it sufficiently

Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.

Um, yea, I think I did make a decent case for expanding the amount of gadget slots. But to sum it up for you again:

First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.

Second, some reasoning:

The only reason the current system works so well is because each side has at least two useless gadgets. On the merc side, flares, tazer, and to a lesser extent spy traps aren't very useful. Therefore, the player really only has a "choice" between 5-6 of the gadgets anyway, thus putting the ratio back in PT's realm. The thing is, two gadgets were useless in PT as well (snares and phosphorous), so you pretty much had no choice between equipment at all.

On the spy side, you have camo and to a lesser extent snares and bullets being useless -- at least when compared to the usefulness of other equipment. Therefore, again the spy only has a choice between 6-7 out of the 8 gadgets. Yet I do find myself wishing for an extra gadget slot as spy much more than I do as merc because I do actually use snares.

Now, if PS does what it aims to do and rebalances the equipment so that everything is equally useful given the right situation, you are going to run into a serious crunch when it comes to equipment. "Expanding" the slots to still wouldn't allow the teams to take as many gadgets, percentage wise, as in PT. To me, it makes little sense why one would add two gadgets per team to the game, but not expand the amount of items the sides could take.

Third, some balancing:

There are some equipment combinations, particularly on the spy side, which could be used with a fifth slot, but currently leave the spy too handicapped. One example is snares + camo. With only two slots left, you now have to choose among a wide array of equipment that is just "too good" to let go. Chaff disables like every defense in the game. Cams give you another way to KO mercs. But if you take those two, you are left without a way to escape when you're in a pinch via smoke and chaff, and you're left without any sort of recon. You're simply sacrificing way too much to take an equipment combination that doesn't compensate for it. The result is that almost everyone takes a similar loadout of smoke or flash, cams, chaff, and hb sensor.

On the merc side, let's assume that the tazer is useful again. What are you going to give up for it? You already have the bullcharge for close up spies. Mines? No, those are too good. Frags? Ditto. Backpack? Ok, one merc can afford to give that up, but not both. Mask? Ha! Camnet? Depends on the map. Basically, everything that is common now is just way too integral to give up, so no matter how much you buff tazer/flares, the mercs aren't going to change their loadout that much.

In summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.

The argument for a set slot:

I was in support of this idea for camnet, but now that I think about it, it makes more sense with mask. The reason is, I don't think that either side should have to play a guessing game to hard-counter the other side's equipment when you are locked into your choice for the duration of the match. Not that there's much of a guess since 99.9999999repeated% of players take sticky cams, so the mask isn't really a risk, but in concept it's not good to have that "guessing game" mechanic with A counters B counters C. If we give mask to mercs, then the question becomes what to give to spies? I would think that camo makes the most sense, since it fits in with the whole stealthy theme of it.

IF the "gimme gadget" were in place, then I would say to leave the selectable slots at 4/7. If not, and I am by no means a staunch supporter of the "gimme gadget," then I would fully support expanding the loadout to 5 items.

I think that's a pretty sufficient explanation, don't you? At least, it's much better than your "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT" argument.

[Farley4Fan]

I might be okay with it if there are more gadgets to choose from.  And if you get less of each gadget.  But that can't happen if everyone is so entirely against new gadgets.  I still think that 4 slots are perfect, but 5 slots would change gameplay drastically.  I don't know if it would be for the better.

[Xris]

actually if we get enough new gadgets there would be potential for a gimmie and a 5th slot.
however im not saying that either side really needs this as is.

[frvge]

I have gadgets at F1-F4. And putting my finger from F4 to F5 sucks.

[Westfall]

spekkio explained it sufficiently

Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.

Um, yea, I think I did make a decent case for expanding the amount of gadget slots. But to sum it up for you again:

First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.

Second, some reasoning:

The only reason the current system works so well is because each side has at least two useless gadgets. On the merc side, flares, tazer, and to a lesser extent spy traps aren't very useful. Therefore, the player really only has a "choice" between 5-6 of the gadgets anyway, thus putting the ratio back in PT's realm. The thing is, two gadgets were useless in PT as well (snares and phosphorous), so you pretty much had no choice between equipment at all.

On the spy side, you have camo and to a lesser extent snares and bullets being useless -- at least when compared to the usefulness of other equipment. Therefore, again the spy only has a choice between 6-7 out of the 8 gadgets. Yet I do find myself wishing for an extra gadget slot as spy much more than I do as merc because I do actually use snares.

Now, if PS does what it aims to do and rebalances the equipment so that everything is equally useful given the right situation, you are going to run into a serious crunch when it comes to equipment. "Expanding" the slots to still wouldn't allow the teams to take as many gadgets, percentage wise, as in PT. To me, it makes little sense why one would add two gadgets per team to the game, but not expand the amount of items the sides could take.

Third, some balancing:

There are some equipment combinations, particularly on the spy side, which could be used with a fifth slot, but currently leave the spy too handicapped. One example is snares + camo. With only two slots left, you now have to choose among a wide array of equipment that is just "too good" to let go. Chaff disables like every defense in the game. Cams give you another way to KO mercs. But if you take those two, you are left without a way to escape when you're in a pinch via smoke and chaff, and you're left without any sort of recon. You're simply sacrificing way too much to take an equipment combination that doesn't compensate for it. The result is that almost everyone takes a similar loadout of smoke or flash, cams, chaff, and hb sensor.

On the merc side, let's assume that the tazer is useful again. What are you going to give up for it? You already have the bullcharge for close up spies. Mines? No, those are too good. Frags? Ditto. Backpack? Ok, one merc can afford to give that up, but not both. Mask? Ha! Camnet? Depends on the map. Basically, everything that is common now is just way too integral to give up, so no matter how much you buff tazer/flares, the mercs aren't going to change their loadout that much.

In summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.

The argument for a set slot:

I was in support of this idea for camnet, but now that I think about it, it makes more sense with mask. The reason is, I don't think that either side should have to play a guessing game to hard-counter the other side's equipment when you are locked into your choice for the duration of the match. Not that there's much of a guess since 99.9999999repeated% of players take sticky cams, so the mask isn't really a risk, but in concept it's not good to have that "guessing game" mechanic with A counters B counters C. If we give mask to mercs, then the question becomes what to give to spies? I would think that camo makes the most sense, since it fits in with the whole stealthy theme of it.

IF the "gimme gadget" were in place, then I would say to leave the selectable slots at 4/7. If not, and I am by no means a staunch supporter of the "gimme gadget," then I would fully support expanding the loadout to 5 items.

I think that's a pretty sufficient explanation, don't you? At least, it's much better than your "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT" argument.

All of your argument makes perfect sense. Its not that I was "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT." In fact I'm more than for changes. Thats what PS is about regardless. I just think its unnecessary. DO YOU NEED 5 GADGETS? Will this make you the l33t3st out there? Maybe have it as an alternate. We can call that more chaos mode.

[Spekkio]

You don't need to have any gadgets (see: Double Agent). If you want to expand the depth of the game, you should add another gadget choice.

I also don't see how more gadgets would add more chaos. If triple nades + 2 more gadgets becomes imba, then you can nerf triple nading.

[Farley4Fan]

You don't need to have any gadgets (see: Double Agent). If you want to expand the depth of the game, you should add another gadget choice.

I also don't see how more gadgets would add more chaos. If triple nades + 2 more gadgets becomes imba, then you can nerf triple nading.

And none of that can happen if you don't add new gadgets.  So anyone that supports the 5th gadget slot but not new ideas is out of their mind. 

And spekkio, what if there are new grenades added?  A 4th slot would lead to quadruple nading.  That's bad mmkay? lol But I guess it depends on the type of grenade.

[MacBryce]

Adding another slot is something to do after extensive playtesting.

A minor consideration: If the mod would ever become available for PS3, a fifth slot would be more need a new interface. (Selecting gadgets is done with R2 and then pressing the triangle, square, circle or cross. Adding a fifth slot to one of the shoulder buttons after pressing R2 wouldn't be very elegant IMHO.)