back to wall and rail camping -and other moves

[Wanted_David]

inverted grabs - yes please
rails - stop moving = fall off, spies grab ledge
back to wall - use button please
coop - yes (add new one like SCCt coop)
backflip - yes please
escape moves - yes
merc rappel - yes

Don't forget SWAT turn. Would be cool to add the half split jump with double jumping (when in HSJ position, press jump button to get higher ground, like in SCPT singleplayer).
Know what? Basically I would love to see pretty much every moves/maneuvers that are in the SCDA multi plus the moves mentioned above. Would rock!

[Spekkio]

Here's a different idea:

One of the reasons that rail camping is so powerful is because the merc can't get grabbed up there. You need a platform of a certain width in order to grab the merc, otherwise you just elbow him. In the new engine, can't you just make a merc grabbable on a rail? That would pretty much solve the problem without any radical changes. It'd also solve the problem of people not getting grabbed on certain surfaces because there's not enough room for the animation. If the spy doesn't have room for an animation or it looks silly, you can have him do a throw-off move that kills the merc.

Likewise, could you make it so that you can grab mercs on inclines? Make a new animation for incline/decline if needed so it doesn't look ridiculous. For example, on a decline the spy can jump on the mercs back to take him down into a choke hold, then you can choose to KO him by slamming his head into the floor or kill him by choking him out. Most of the time it's easy to avoid this frustrating experience because stairs are obvious, but have you tried grabbing mercs near the rubble in transformer room in factory? It just doesn't work out because the ground is ever-so-slightly uneven.

PS: The swat turn is gay. Humans aren't going to just ignore you when they see you flipping around in front of their face the way the NPCs do in SCPT.

[Daybreak]

Swat turn is gay. I can agree to that, but what I wouldn't mind seeing is a quick side roll or side step. You can roll forward to get away. I thought, it'd be nice to be able to roll side ways. Or side spin to the side. For quick hidding purposes or side stepping a charge. Or for quick reveals, rather than just poping out from cover, you roll out and shoot. I just think it would be usefull to have siderolling.
I'll make a picture thingy.

[DrKennethNoisewater]

@ rail camping

i agree with spekkio's idea to make them grabbable, but how about also making it possible to ledge grab them. I know nothing about making animations and what not, and maybe someone already said this, but when the merc is on a rail, make it so the spy can just reach up and pull them off... maybe but the ankle? it actually seems more plausible than the real ledge grab.

just an idea.

BAH! i just saw daybreak's post saying the same thing...well... bravo daydreak, i'm slow

[Spekkio]

I'd be for that as well; the problem is being able to have the game discern between a merc camping on top of a rail and a merc just standing on top of a box. I really don't think we need to add hanging box grabs to the game.

[Wanted_David]

The thing about SWAT turn isn't become invisible to the merc like you mentioned, Daybreak. Of course a merc would spot a spy doing it, but the SWAT turn is a very quick move, so the merc would have less chances to spot the spy.
SWAT turn is also good when in corner shooting, that way you'd have a better cover (remember, a moving target is always harder to pinpoint than a static target).
Oh, talking about corner shooting, pleeeeease implement the "switch shoulder" feature. It's really annoying to shoot with only the right hand...

[goodkebab]

swat turn wont make it into the game...its a cool move that has no believable function against human opponents.

One thing we can do is that a Spy Punch to a mercs foot will knock the merc down -but not unconscious.

The only way a spy can punch a mercs foot is if he is on a rail.

[Spekkio]

What about giving the spies the ability to grab mercs on rails?

[Wanted_David]

oh, but swat turn is soo cool...
truth is swat turn had "no believable function" against human or NPC opponents. In SCPT, if you performed it while an opponent was looking in your direction, you'd be detected.
Swat turn is a quick and silent move, it's a great way to switch positions of cover, and that's what makes it so great. But if you don't want to add it to the moves list, you don't have to. It's your call. I'm just giving you some reasons why you should put it, that's all...

[goodkebab]

It would have to be a specific attack animation that would only happen when the spys arm hit box collides with the lower leg hit boxes of the merc.  This only happens when spy is crouched and punches, or if merc is elevated above spy....either by rails,  standing on boxes,  stairs, ledges, what have you....this could also apply in situations where Merc falls onto an unsuspecting spy.

Currently,  height is a significant advantage for mercs because spies cannot grab unless both players are standing on a flat surface and mercs can beserk against jumping spies.  Mercs can also charge up and down stairs.

To balance that advantage,  i think its fair to give spies the ability to roll and dive up stairs like in DA.

Also, having punch and grab as a seperate button will help aleviate confusion.

That brings back the controls issue...I am a freak when it comes to efficient hotkeys  -using software that values 10k and requires hundreds of commands mapped to the keyboard has tought me the appreciation of efficiency.

So i suggest pressing a hotkey to do back to wall,  but no key necessary to exit this position(you merely move away from wall).  Spies will be free to walk-crouch along the wall, allowing for greater stealth and
even new escape routes.

The next move i suggest,  is taken from Colossus, which is the vertical ledge climb, where spy leverages a foothold while grabbing a ledge and vertically pushes himself high enough to grab a ledge further up.

[Spekkio]

It would have to be a specific attack animation that would only happen when the spys arm hit box collides with the lower leg hit boxes of the merc.  This only happens when spy is crouched and punches, or if merc is elevated above spy....either by rails,  standing on boxes,  stairs, ledges, what have you....this could also apply in situations where Merc falls onto an unsuspecting spy.

Eh, you'll have too many people trying frontal attacks on stairs trying to knock out the mercs if you do that, especially working in a 2v1 tandem. At least with grabs you just have to protect your back...with this stuff, you pretty much can't be safe at all. Your move sounds similar to the KO attack when a merc is crouching. If so it'll make stairs a no-go zone the way they were in PT with SS + DJ.

I still say the simplest solution is to allow the merc to be grabbed while perched on rails and on stairwells. If you need new animations to make it work, fine, but it should take the same net time to kill a merc as if you did a grab on a normal, flat surface. You don't need any of this fancy stuff to allow instant KOs and stuff like that.

There shouldn't be a "safe haven" for either team in terms of positioning, and the mercs will still have a positional advantage when they are higher up because the spies have to actually get up there to grab him.

[Daybreak]

I don't think it'll be hard to program for a spy to know if a merc is on the rail or not. Just like with the rail grab, some how the game knows there's a rail there for a rail grab. I would imagine it's the same thing, though I could be wrong.

I'm not happy with just knocking the merc off rail. He's being lame standing on a it and should be punnishable by death if he lets a spy get so close to him. Die rail climbers.

[InvisibleMan999]

Even if you could grab a merc standing on a rail, how would you do it? I mean a rail camper is probably not going to be facing the opposite direction and turning his back to you, and there's no way to actually get behind him, because there's just a drop there. Unless you side grab, it doesn't seem like you'll have much chance of grabbing the merc, even if the game allowed it.

Kind of a pointless waste of an animation if you ask me.

The easiest thing is just to have the sticky shocker give a merc a little push. So you can shoot him off the rail from a distance, if grabbing a rail camper is really something you care about.

Of course, one could also just solve the problem by being stealthy. Not every solution in this game has to involve necking or KOing the merc. Personally, I've never even had a problem with rail camping, but then I do a stealth strategy and not an aggro one.

[B1nArY_001]

swat move seems overkill and not really needed, the passages for back-to-wall could be extremely usefull if implemented properly and as far as rail camping... I never saw much of an issue with a spy on a rail. He still eats bullets just fine. The merc however can be a pain. The leg punch isn't a bad idea but what about just simply having him fall off if sticky shocked? I don't know of anyone who could balance on a 2 inch rail while being electrocuted. Your nervous system just got highjacked and your equilibrium gets screwed all to hell. If you've never been hit with a tazer or stun-gun you might not understand the sensation, but I have and it severely cripples you. You can't even talk right after being hit with one, none of your muscles respond correctly etc.

[Spekkio]

Of course, one could also just solve the problem by being stealthy. Not every solution in this game has to involve necking or KOing the merc. Personally, I've never even had a problem with rail camping, but then I do a stealth strategy and not an aggro one.

Oh yea, cuz that railcamping merc in Station sector 2 or Deftech outer courtyard that can see everything in the damn room isn't going to see you when you walk across in front of his face.

Oh yea, and stealth will really work on that merc railcamping in Pirates on Aquarius when you don't have any other objectives left to do.