equipment amount decrease every respawn (and related stuff like mask)

[Westfall]

But it does what it's supposed to: it punishes dying.

punishing for death is retarded...

[Gawain]

it's not about some form of "punishment", it's about removing imbalances in the eq system.

if you die 2 times, you get the exact same amount of stuff you get in ct if you sum it up, so it's only fine tuning (unlike the drastic changes a refill box system implies). unless you want careful players to run out of equipment while uncareful players can spam all day long, this is the way to go (not dying: 5 smoke nades; dying 5 times: 25 smoke nades, yay).
same goes for mask as a permanent gadget: the difference to ct is minimal cause virtually every good player takes mask anyways, but it would remove the hard-counter guessing game.

[Kurbutti]

I can throw at least two problems within rambo's idea from the top of my head:

First, I'd say that there will be situations in the game where getting a single objective will become extremely hard and fatal even with full equipment. Given the circumstances spies might die multiple times in the process, and each time they loose a life they suffer a  minus in their equipment, further weakening their chances to get through. Furthermore, don't forget that dying already costs you a lot of time.

Secondly, I don't think noobs will find this very appealing. Sad truth is, that noob spies really die - a lot. Now I'm imagining a noob spy with 1 piece of each equipment fighting their way trhrough a shitload of mines.

Simply put, this system stretches the gap between merc/spy sklil correlation more than goatse guy can stratch his ass.

[VaNilla]

I really don't think this is needed - if anything Westfall had a nice idea, however when you respawn everything revolving around YOU should be back to square one, there isn't any real problem with the gadget system in place. The way I see it everyone wants to change everything and sometimes it's just unnecessary.

However if you want to change certain properties of the game, I think the host should have the ability to do that, and they already do in terms of static properties with alternate mode, maybe that could go into more depth.

[Kurbutti]

when you respawn everything revolving around YOU should be back to square one,

If I die, the game should restart? There's no going back to square one after the game advances by one nanosecond. I'm suprised how many left the most essential element completely out from the debate.

there isn't any real problem with the gadget system in place.

So what's bad about the new ones?

However if you want to change certain properties of the game, I think the host should have the ability to do that, and they already do in terms of static properties with alternate mode, maybe that could go into more depth.

First of all, none played CT in alternative mode.

Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.

Third of all, this game is centered around a single mechanic, the story mode as we call it, and simply on the basis of the thought and reasoning behind it's creation it's obvious that the mechanic is going to be balanced to play well with an exact set of features. If we allow people to pick off something they don't like, the gameplay is already destroyed.

Fourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.

[Westfall]

Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.

Well, manipulating what gadgets you have after each life seems like it should go into the "alternate" category by your logic. Either it should stay at a constant for respawning, or gadgets should be maintained throughout with the ability to reload at ammo boxes. There's no significant need or balance that would lead to the conclusion of changing gadget amounts based on death.

Fourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.

This was one thing I left out of the argument because I thought Rambo would hate the idea of including noobs in the discussion.

[I <3 U]

So is this what we want:

- The ability for merc and spies to refill their gadgets from ammo boxes. Mercs and spies should not use the same ammo box.

- When killed, you respawn with the same amount of equipment / gadgets that you had before dying.

- There to be a limit on how many times you can refill from the ammo boxes (the ammo boxes run out of equipment). But this should be different for all ammo boxes, depending on the location of the box (for example an ammo box right next to an objective, should maybe allow 1-2 refills, whereas a box that draws mercs from positions they have to cover allow 3-6 refills).

I think the "-2" idea is retarded, as dying (as merc or spy) is enough punishment in itself. Spies never kill themselves for EQ anyway. Just do what we discussed (read up) for both sides, it's much more realistic, and better for gameplay.
By implementing this system it would make backpack less vital aswell. Players could either use a gadget slot for backpack and refill "on the fly" or take another gadget and have to refill with the ammo boxes.

Gasmask should be a compulsory gadget for story mode, and players can pick 4/5 other gadgets.

[VaNilla]

Kurbutti just because your player respawns doesn't mean the map they are playing on does too, I said everything revolving around THEM, not the map :). What's bad about the new suggesstion is it punishes for death, and ultimately that's not very logical because you punish YOURSELF for being an idiot, the idea of dying in a way is to teach people how NOT to die, and if you take gadgets away too that hinders your ability to do that, thus turning people away.

I don't think you can give the host too much control really in terms of what effects them when playing the game, obviously they can't change things like lighting as that's a balanced part of the maps but things like gravity and whatnot, there's no reason why that shouldn't be allowed really, if you don't like the rules that the host has made for their server don't visit it, infact I think UT3 has a filter system so do what you like, and other people can too.

You only said that "too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations", if a lot of people play a certain gametype doesn't that say something good about it? Unless of course it's official modes that people whore to the extent they don't check out others, that's why it's an ALTERNATIVE setting.

[Gawain]

first of all, custom rules suck, there's nothing to discuss about that.
secondly, widening the gap between pros and noobs isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing.
it's bullshit to make careful players die because they run out of nades they need for a successfull escape or aggro attack on the last objective. the biggest problem about this imbalance is smoke/cams, because those drain the merc's mask: if you dont die, you get 5 of each and they aren't that strong because the merc has almost full mask. if you die 5 times and get 25 smoke nades and cams, they totally pwn cause the merc has an empty mask. maybe the merc should get back 20% mask for each frag XD
so what i foresee is that most careful pro players will use mostly gadgets that dont depend on an empty mask and wont run out, so the new standart eq might always have camo and hbs which is bad for variety.

[I <3 U]

AMMO / GADGET REFILL BOXES! No need for all of these over-complex systems for such a simple thing, getting more gadgets..

[Nitro]

This is a really bad idea, and it will ruin the gameplay all in all.
I am sure you are fed up with mercs killing themselves for new EQ or spies getting a new aggrowave on you after you have killed them.

What this will lead to:
- You will get more aggro spies (kill the merc a few times and he cant nade the hacksites. An All in solution)
- For those spies who actually play it stealthy they will now not get rewarded for their KOs/clever play and when they get killed the game will become start getting near to impossible.
- Maps will have to be designed in a whole different way. (how will a spy team mange to take out a map situation like cafe on museum without gear?)
- Mercs will get even harder punished when aggro spies have abit of luck with monster aggro. (and with no Uzi, what is left to do? )
- basically you loose the wide deep gameplay the game offers. (back to CS when you die to much you do not get the cash to buy guns)

If any you should have this "loosing gadgets" rule solely for the merc suicides. But then again, a mistake at the wrong place is costing mercs enough already.


Really starting to get abit worried when i see all the suggestions made here. :/

[Kubanator]

Lets say we have Bob and Joe. They play Generic FPS. Bob is 2x as good as Joe. They both start with 100 health. They fight, and now Bob has 50 health, and Joe died. Joe respawns, but as it turn out, the devs were out to get him, and decreased his health to 80. Now they fight again. Bob ends up with 10 health and Joe dies again, further penalizing him. He quits, realizing that he has no chance of winning.

Al this idea does is make the start of the match the point of highest intensity, and the points after negligible. Once a team has died once, it will lose it's ability to play at 100%. When this happens, it secures victory for the opposing team, because if they beat them when they weren't disadvantaged, they can beat them when they're weakened.

[Gui Brazil]

Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.

Well, manipulating what gadgets you have after each life seems like it should go into the "alternate" category by your logic. Either it should stay at a constant for respawning, or gadgets should be maintained throughout with the ability to reload at ammo boxes. There's no significant need or balance that would lead to the conclusion of changing gadget amounts based on death.

Fourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.

This was one thing I left out of the argument because I thought Rambo would hate the idea of including noobs in the discussion.

QFE.

Why change something that is just fine the way it is? It does feel like punishing having your equipments amount decreased after you die.

[Gawain]

@all: if you haven't noticed, you would start out with a higher eq amount before it decreases. i think it would be a good idea to implement that system for the spy side only. on the merc side i'd like to see mask becoming a permanent gadget.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

@ Rambo: how about reversing the system? Later (when you need them most) you'd have more gadgets, and it would prevent early-match rushes (rush with 2-3 smokes, meh).